If you want the best privacy possible in Bitcoin, you want to use Samourai Wallet. And for the best way to use it, you need to use your own node. Zelko and Pavel join me to talk about the latest with Ronin Dojo, an easy way to do just that. We chat: 

• What it is
• Who its for
• Recent upgrades on the UI
• Thoughts on hardware wallets
• Other services and features offered
• Best practice tips on privacy
• Open source licensing
• Getting support

Links:

• Site: Ronindojo.io
• Zelko: @BTCxZelko 
• Pavel: @pajasevi 
• Ronin telegram chat: RoninDojoUI

Sponsors: 

• Swan Bitcoin
• Hodl Hodl Lend
• Compass Mining
• Unchained Capital (code LIVERA)
• CypherSafe (code LIVERA)
• CoinKite.com (code LIVERA)

Stephan Livera links:

• Show notes and website
• Follow me on Twitter @stephanlivera
• Subscribe to the podcast
• Patreon @stephanlivera

Podcast Transcript:

Stephan Livera:

All right. Zelko and Pavel. Welcome to the show.

Zelko:

Thanks for having us, man.

Pavel Ševčík:

Yeah. Thanks for having us.

Stephan Livera:

So guys, I wanted to do an update on Ronin Dojo. I’ve seen there’s a lot of things going on. It’s very exciting. So Zelko, you’ve been on the show. Maybe Pavel, do you want to just tell us a little bit about yourself? What you’re involved in the Bitcoin world?

Pavel Ševčík:

Oh yeah, totally. I’ve been involved in Bitcoin since I think 2015 in Prague community in Czech Republic. Since I’m a web application developer, I’ve been trying to find a way to use my skills wherever I can. So then I found a Samourai wallet and I ended up contributing to some of the projects. And then finally, I was contacted by Zelko and we got together. And so now we work on Ronin dojo. So my actual work right now is working on Ronin UI, which is a web UI dashboard and like application to manage your dojo.

Stephan Livera:

And so for listeners who are unfamiliar Zelko is one of the founders of the Ronin Dojo project. And so you can also check out the first episode with Zelko, but basically he’s one of the founders of the project and he is one of the lead spokesman for the project also. Zelko do you want to maybe just add anything else in terms of what’s your focus about Bitcoin? Just for people who are new, maybe they don’t know about Samourai wallet and privacy what’s your focus in the Bitcoin world?

Zelko:

Yeah, so yeah, when I got into it, just like most normal people you’re in for the investment and then you start going down that rabbit hole, right. And you find awesome podcasts like this one and TFTC and all that fun stuff. And you start to learn. And I like recap my self really fast. I just happened to download because I had got an Android phone for the first time. And I downloaded all the Bitcoin apps that I could find. And Samourai was one of them. I was on a hiatus and I came back and I heard about Whirlpool. And then my privacy journey started like that. That got me hooked. And then running my own node and actually using your own node was big for me. I was like, wow, you can actually like use this to back your wallet.

Zelko:

This seems so much better. And ever since then, I’ve been red pilled, if you will, by all the privacy guys. And it’s been an awesome journey. Like you just realize how strong the community is. I mean, Bitcoin community, if you’re looking at Bitcoin community versus everybody else you know, there’s always tribalism, right. But you know, if you look at Bitcoin community versus everybody else, like non coiners or nocoiners or whatever, we call them it’s like we’re super tight despite all the infighting, we’re all super tight, but then inside, there’s always small cliques, right? You have privacy people, you got holders for life. You got a number go up for life. You got Lightning, non Lightning, you got privacy people. And so everyone’s super tight knit and no matter what tribe you’re in, it’s really cool for me.

Zelko:

The privacy stuff is massive. And I’ve just learned so much from, I mean, Pavel has been there from the beginning since I started interacting in the Samourai wallet space. So yeah, my focus has really been, how can we stay more private? How can we be sovereign individuals? Cause ultimately like that’s what Bitcoin is about. Right? So Bitcoin is supposed to be about decentralized sovereign censorship resistant anti-state currency. And that’s our focus. So how we want to be able to bring from Ronin Dojo, we want to bring you all the tools and everything you need to have to gain the most privacy and to be your own master. Right? I mean, Ronins are the masterless Samurai? So that’s the goal and that’s always going to be the focus.

Stephan Livera:

Excellent. And so just a bit of context for listeners, if you are interested in Bitcoin privacy, my favorite privacy wallet is the Samourai Wallet. And so if you use Samourai wallet on the default setup, like if you just go into Google play and you download Samourai wallet, that will call out to Samourai Wallet’s servers. And so what we’re talking about today is Ronin Dojo. So this is like your own personalized server and it’s like an easy way to run your own one. So maybe you might start with Samourai wallet just on the default set up just to play around. And then when you’re ready to take that next step up, that’s when you might look at Ronin Dojo. So Zelko do you want to just give us a bit of an overview? What does it look like if that user or that listener out there is like, okay, I’m ready to take that step. How do I make my own Ronin Dojo?

Zelko:

So we have recommended hardware list. You just pick up what you want to run it with. We actually have, we’re starting to build and push out some plug and play nodes. We actually have some really, really cool designs that we can talk about a little bit more coming up, but with rockpro64, that’s my go-to single board computer. You can also run on a raspberry pi four. We support pretty much almost every single board computer that’s out there pick up the hardware, you flash our OS that’s almost identical to, it’s pretty much identical to the one that Manjaro actually offers. And then yeah, you just run the repo git start, and then you have the UI up and you install it and it does everything for you.

Zelko:

We made it as simple as possible. So, and then we have a Wiki that the whole team has contributed to, but Bitcoin Q&A is a huge contributor to that. So if you like his work, you’re going to see a lot of that kind of trickle into our Wiki page and everything. You need to know whether it’s PGP verification, whether it’s flashing an SD card — to how to do it, literally everything step-by-step, it’s all laid out. One of the things I’m most proud about with our project, and then we have the community that’s always there. We’re always around trying to help people. We keep it really simple. It’s not very hard. You can be up and running in 10 minutes. So that’s kind of it in a nutshell I’m really excited about it. So…

Stephan Livera:

Cool. And so maybe one more entry-level question just for listeners who might be new to this world, how should they think about Ronin Dojo as compared to some of the other well-known node projects out there? Right. So some of the well-known ones Umbrel, MyNode, Raspiblitz, maybe Start9 the Embassy Product. That’s probably not all, there’s some other ones out there. Can you just spell out for them — what’s the difference with Ronin dojo and why should they think about using Ronin Dojo?

Zelko:

That’s always a good one. And I love actually breaking this down. Cause we got quite a few people that come in and ask it the way I lay it out for people is really what’s your goal? Like, what are you trying to do? If you’re a Samourai user and you know exactly what you want, there’s really no question, right? We’re going to give you everything as a Samourai user that you need. If you’re looking to experiment with a bunch of new, different apps and stuff and find out what you potentially might use or not use I think that projects like myNode or Umbrel are great for those, the one benefit that we really do have is that pure focus on the, I guess you could say our mission, our vision, like we know exactly what we’re doing, what we’re focused on.

Zelko:

So that allows us to kind of trim the fat and not bloat our software, you know? So we’re really focused on optimizing Dojo, making everything as user-friendly troubleshoot, friendly, everything geared towards that because it is a beast. I mean, as you said, right? It replaces a server. So when you’re thinking about it in that mindset, right, you want to make that as user-friendly as possible. Dojo is not just another app that you just put on to your node. It’s a whole complex system. So there’s no one more experienced in that department than the team that we have. And that’s that goes with Pavel S2L1, QnA, CrazyK? Like the whole team. Our whole team is done nothing but dojo for pretty much our entire time. So if you’re looking and you’re not sure we’re not going to be the ones offering you Lightning, can you add it on there?

Zelko:

Absolutely. If you want to do that yourself, but with our small team and our focus, like we’re going to stick to our on chain stuff, but the other projects. Yeah. You’ll be able to offer that. I think a start9 has some cool stuff with some [of] that. I do appreciate their self sovereign mindset. I’m all for it. You know, other than that, though, I think that delivering that dojo node that you want, we’re the best ones for you and you’re going to get the most up-to-date release we work directly with the dojo team. Pavel has been working a lot with the dojo team as of late, and there’s no one that’s going to get you what you need better than we are if you’re a Samourai user.

Stephan Livera:

Yep. And so I think for listeners out there, it’s also useful to think when you use a node project, you’ve also got to think about not just, what’s easiest to first set up, but also maintenance and ongoing, right? And so if you are a Samourai user and you really care maximally about the best possible privacy in Bitcoin, then you’re going to be looking at Samourai wallet and then you’re also going to be thinking, well, how do I upgrade that node? How do I update it over time? And how do I maintain it? And then if I run into problems, can I get support on that? I’m a fan of all the different Bitcoin node projects and it’s good that there’s competition and it’s good that there’s different projects trying different things.

Stephan Livera:

But if you are a samourai wallet specifically user, I think you’ll get the better because it’s a specialized project. And then, so when you run into issues, you’ll find other people who are running into that same issue in that chat. And you’ll be able to be a bit more easily able to quickly deal with that issue because it’s actually an ongoing maintenance thing also. So that’s one point I would just add there. And so, Pavel, do you want to just tell us a little bit about what you’ve been doing with Ronin Dojo and what your involvement has been recently?

Pavel Ševčík:

Right. So our long-term goal is making like a web UI. Long-term goal is that you would just purchase a box like a running UI — run a Dojo box, you plug it in, you set up a password and then you access websites and you’re all set up everything you need to do, you will do using the WebUI using the website. So slowly moving towards that. But yeah, basically right now, the main function of the Ronin UI is like serve like main platform or main tool, to interact with your device and your dojo, and like ease as much as possible the usage and the maintenance of your nodes and your dojo. So we have integrated a lot of things into it that should help the users like support and basic maintenance, like restarting the dojo, checking the logs. We even have some like small tools like pushing the finished transactions to the Bitcoin network. And then we have some more specialized dojo tools, like for example, re-scanning xpubs, viewing transactions. And so on in the future, we also want to add more features from Samourai stack. So for example, some tools like Boltzmann, Whirlpool, and so on are interesting for us. And if we can integrate them into the Ronin UI, it would be very beneficial for a user to have everything in one place.

Stephan Livera:

Great. Yeah. So maybe just a bit of context as well. So when Ronin dojo were still forming and I was working with Zelko in the chat and it was all command line, right? The whole thing was fully come online and it was like a guy, it was like a command line guide. So now Ronin has evolved, right? The project has evolved. And so for listeners, you don’t have to sit there doing, command line all day. Now you have a nice, an easier interface to use. And so this gives you like a web interface and like a dashboard that you can interact with your Ronin Dojo, think of it like your Samourai personal server, if you will. And so I guess for people who are just getting into Samourai wallet and you’re just getting started, I guess the main two things to think about, right, you’ve got that Dojo aspect of it, which is running the underlying server that your own Samourai wallet on your Android phone, will call out to your own personal server.

Stephan Livera:

And then the other part is having Whirlpool, right. Which is the ability to run coinjoin. And so historically, or, I mean, even now there’s still Whirlpool CLI, which is the command line aspect of it. And then you’ve got Whirlpool GUI, which is like a graphical user interface that you would have on your PC computer to sort of control, or at least have a dashboard on what’s going on with your coinjoins. So now Ronin Dojo is going to help you as the user configure and see what’s going on with those different pieces. SoZelko, do you want to just chat a little bit about that aspect of it?

Zelko:

So I mean the big thing, right, is that one-stop shop. I mean, for the longest time, like you said, you’ve been a user since nearly day one. So it was really awesome and a really cool motivation for us in the beginning. And we’ve always wanted to make it easier, you know? So you’ve always had like the dojo maintenance tool page that you’d have to go to and view and troubleshoot. We want to bring that to one place. You already have our UI, why have another one? And that’s Pavel’s expertise. So we’ve been working on integrating that. And actually he’s made a lot of really good contributions to the dojo code base to make that even easier because it’s all written in JavaScript, which is his field of expertise. So we’re doing that.

Zelko:

And then again, the GUI is really that’s how bad is really just a wrapper really pretty wrapper that you can put anywhere. So we want to try to put that back into, again, another tab for us or anybody that’s been on, like KYCP, knowyourcoinprivacy.org which is another Samourai wallet feature that you can go and see the deterministic links. And it’s all really pretty for you. So you can see how good or bad your transactions are and how easy it is to trace or how hard it is to trace. So we’ve already been testing that integrating that and having a pretty UI on our side so that users can do that without having to go to a bunch of different sites, without having to worry about any other sort of privacy leaks that you might have, like an off chance of worrying about it.

Zelko:

That’s going to be all gone. We want to bring everything to you in an easy way. And and that’s what we’re doing with the UI. So we’re moving in that direction because that’s what we’re about. And another big focus was that it reminded me of we talked about the other projects in competition, right? Massive. Cause when we first started all command line, I think at the time our intent was a free alternative right. Software wise to nodl because that was the only way people could easily run a dojo. we wanted to be an alternative and there was Raspiblitz. There was Raspibolt, but really like myNode kind of broke that whole UI factor. It brought a lot of good competition.

Zelko:

Now we see Umbrel, we see start nine. And so it really drove us to that direction. And so that’s what we want, but we didn’t want just a dashboard. We didn’t just want like a place where you can click and install and maybe see if it’s running, we want you to be able to interact. We want you to be able to control your dojo and all your applications from that spot. So that’s been our focus and our direction. We want it to be like, “oh, I can use this. If I want to go here. If I need to use it” It’s accessible with both local if you’re at home, obviously that’s faster, easier. And then it’s also available over Tor with your own private link. And you just save that in your Tor browser, on mobile or on your laptop, you just saved that and bookmark it And then you go to it and access it anywhere you’re at no matter what you have access to your Ronin Dojo right there. So that’s what we want and that’s been our goal. So I think that’s where we’re moving. And I think we’re going to continue to build and make the super awesome one-stop shop all dojo users, right?

Stephan Livera:

And so context again for listeners in the past, where if you wanted to do this, you have to be a lot more advanced as a user to be able to remote back in to your server from outside, you might need a terminal and then you might need to be comfortable and savvy with command line where now it’s being made easy with all in one in a Tor browser interface. And so you can sort of see, and the idea is you might be able to then more easily check on your, what mixes you have going on or more easily see, okay, is myNode synced correctly up to the chain tip? That is the latest block, or I might need to, as an example, if I say scanning an old wallet and putting that onto this dojo, I might need to check, has it, do I need to rescan my xpub, which is like to rescan and make sure it has seen everything that I’ve got in this wallet, just as an example.

Stephan Livera:

So I think this is a great tool for people who are out there and they want to take that next step into privacy and they want the best possible privacy on Bitcoin. I think this is a great tool because in this way, you’re getting kind of the best coinjoin stuff and the best coinjoin tools, but also backed by your own Bitcoin node, which is an important thing that we try to teach people how to learn, how to do that. So let’s talk a little bit about some of those other functions that we might need to learn about. So let’s say somebody new, they haven’t done this before. As an example, they might need to be able to check the logs or learn to stop and restart things. So can you just tell us a little bit about some of those functions and how they might, if they’re just getting started, why they might need to do some of those things.

Zelko:

I’ll jump into to some of them, and if I miss some, I’ll let Pavel talk about it. Talk about it from the UI perspective, but the the logs and understanding the logs and what different things mean, which is, again, a great thing about our Wiki. We have everything laid out what you should be worried about or not worried about. You want to be able to access that in the event that maybe your wallet’s saying something, or you’re the biggest things. People say the missing funds. They’re like, I lost my Bitcoin. That’s always like, everyone’s heart drops in their stomach. And they go into panic mode, fear, not every Dojo user has been there. And anyone that has been there once you get through your first time, you’re like, okay, I understand now, but that’s where the logs come into play.

Zelko:

That’s where using the XPUB rescan, some of our other features like either electrs, right electrum rust server or the Samourai indexer having those tools allows your rescan to come in, be faster and import your wallet. That’s really what it’s doing. If people aren’t really sure what your indexer is doing or what XPUB rescan does. It’s, re-scanning that entire blockchain for every single transaction that your wallet has in the whole history and then what dojo does is it sets it aside and says, okay, we’re tracking all of these now we’re aware. And we’re going to make sure that every single transaction is fed. And then additionally, Samourai has an another feature that says, we’re going to flag. If it tries to reuse — it won’t let you, right. It’ll say, you’re trying to reuse an address for say a Whirlpool or a Stonewall or any of their features.

Zelko:

It’ll flag it and say no. So we get people that say that too. And that’s okay. Because what that generally will tell us, right? If you look at the logs, it’ll say, oh I’m not up to date for up to the current block. Alright, no problem. Generally, just a restart will fix you. But if you don’t have access to the logs, if you’re not aware of how the architecture works for, your dojo, you might not know that. And that’s we don’t expect every user to have that technical knowledge to do that, but that’s what we’re here for as far as support. And that’s also what we provide all of those things that you’ll need and learn right along your journey so that you can do it again in the future without us. We want people to be as sovereign from whether it used to be like learning the command line, which will always be an offer to like how to actually fix this stuff yourself eventually. And that way you don’t need me, you can do all this stuff with or without any of us. And that’s really the goal in the UI has made that even easier. You know? So Pavel, if you want to talk about some of the UI stuff that people can do…

Pavel Ševčík:

I think that one of the main benefits of the UI is that aside from the troubleshooting kind and all that is that there are some cases that your Bitcoin core might stop working or yours. I don’t know Dojo tracker might stop working. Anything can happen to our network whatever without access to your device via SSH or like direct access via a keyboard and a screen. You would be like totally screwed before, but if your device is still running and still accessible, you can just whenever you are and have mobile connection to the internet, you can access your node, your Ronin Dojo over the Tor network, check the logs, see if anything is wrong up there and restart to whole dojo and possibly restarting, mostly fixes a lot of issues. So, yeah, this is the thing that can fix a lot of issues when you’re not at home. And you notice that your node isn’t behaving properly.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. So you might be out and about, or you might be traveling for work or for whatever reason, and you might need to be able to remotely get back in and just check that everything is running. And this is a feature for that. Now, I think it might also be handy just to talk about some of the other features that maybe a user might be thinking, or the listeners might be thinking, okay, well, if I’ve got my coldcard or my hardware wallet, and I want to run it with specter or Sparrow, can I do that with my Ronin Dojo?

Zelko:

Yeah, absolutely. Specter was one of the ones I was really excited about just as an alternative to Electrum. I mean, the interface is great, right? I’m really excited to see the progress that they’ve made. So when, when I saw that I wanted to start integrating it and that’s exactly what we did. So yep. You have access to specter and still use the electronic. If you want to use that, if that’s your preference. Sparrow, I believe utilizes a Electrum Rust server. So any of those ones that you want to use for those hardware wallets, we we still offer those things. I think most of the, most of the team we’re super, super red pilled Samourai guys. So most of us are what we like to call Samourai Maxis, but we understand that’s not everyone’s threat model, and that’s ultimately what it comes down to.

Zelko:

It’s a threat model that some people want to pursue and advocate now we’ll support that because we do understand that’s part of our user base. So yeah, we fully support it, test it. We add that to our QA every single time. So in any of those new releases that come out, we get those tested and integrate that as soon as we get them. So yeah, whatever people want to use for their hardware wallets, minus one particular desktop wallet that isn’t supported by us. Yeah. They’re all supported. I think everyone who knows what I’m talking about knows what I’m talking about, but wallets, who shall not be named.

Stephan Livera:

And also, so actually just for listeners who are unclear about like, oh, Samourai Maxi, what’s that mean? Like, can you just tell us a little bit about the difference in the philosophy there? Right. So because hardware, wallets are a popular thing in the Bitcoin community, but what’s kind of the Samourai community perspective on that. Just, just to give them a flavor of that perspective?

Zelko:

I’ll give a little bit, and then I’ll let Pavel give his insight, because I know he has opinions on this as well. So a lot of the, I guess I’ll say core community contributors will say that we’ve been using Samourai for so long, and we understand the benefits that we get from maintaining your coins in Whirlpool and continuously gaining forward-Looking anonymity by just mixing right. Free mixing. Like it doesn’t really get better than that. All you got to do is leave them there. Additionally a lot of us are using whether it’s CalyOS or Graphene, Copperhead, whatever, while using the Google Fence at this point we, our threat models we see is a lot lower a on a mobile device versus hardware wallet. And that’s our choice I guess if we get more into it we’ll probably upset a lot of people that are hardware wallet users and that I don’t particularly think it would be advantageous, but you know, it, again, it’s a threat model choice that we’ve never seen nor do we really see it, a huge hole for mobile wallets.

Zelko:

So especially with the backup models that Samourai has with the fully encrypted payloads and everything else, it, the threat model’s low. And in my personal opinion, I’m sure NVK and some other people might disagree, but that’s okay. That’s what makes us stronger. Right?

Stephan Livera:

Right. And it might be seen more like a, this is the privacy maximalist choice, right. As well, because the thinking here might also be that you want every transaction, right. As you know, as TDev might say, every spend should be a coinjoin, make every spend a coinjoin. And so the idea is that if you’re trying to keep everything within the coin, joining wallet, then it sort of necessitates keeping everything either in the Samourai wallet or potentially having like an offline phone that you use as like a Samourai hardware wallet, if you kind of, kind of like a hardware wallet, if you will. So I guess it’s also about that privacy maximalism choice, which again, it’s a trade off people have to make for themselves. And Pavel, if you want to add anything there as well that we didn’t cover there.

Pavel Ševčík:

Well, that’s certainly some good use cases for a hardware wallet, but I don’t think it’s so strong as anyone who promotes hardware wallets really tries to put it. I have a hardware wallet. I know guys from Satoshi Labs behind the Trezor, I’m not against, or like super pro hardware wallet, like Zelko said it’s about anyone’s threat model, really. But yeah, phone, which is deGoogled and potentially in totally offline phone can serve this role as well. Thanks to Samourai tools. It can even benefit user privacy.

Zelko:

Yeah. And in the followup to that too, right. One of the biggest questions we get is, okay, I mixed now I want to send it to my hardware wallet. Right. And we’re like, okay. Yeah, no problem. Here are the different steps that you can do. Here’s some things that you can make it, no longer a hot wallet, make it a warm or cold ish wallet, whatever you want to call it, just take your keys offline. Here’s a bunch of things you can do. But you know, the other side of it, right, is that if you take those coins and you put them in, you take them out of a Whirlpool and you put them into your hardware wallet. Now you either need to be very, especially if you’re putting multiple amounts of coinjoins, you are going to want to not consolidate all those later on.

Zelko:

You’re going to want to make sure that they’re labeled. You want to make sure that you’re on top of it. And especially for the people that are like, I’m not going to spend Bitcoin for 20 years. And if that’s their choice, that’s cool, but that’s 20 years or 10 years or whatever, right. In the future that you still need to be [able to] remember how to do this stuff. So the the plus side of whether it’s keeping them in Samourai, keeping them in that offline never touched the internet, which you can side load Samourai wallet onto there. The benefits of that is that I’ve already mixed. I don’t need to send it back into Whirlpool to redo it, or I don’t need to, I already have the tools. You know, I already have my post-mix spending tools. I don’t need to worry about getting them back into the Samourai wallet to then utilize a Stonewall or a peer-to-peer coinjoin.

Zelko:

I don’t have to worry about those things because they’re already there. And I think that’s our biggest part is that, you’ve taken the steps. You did all the right things, right. You’re a user and you like took your privacy for yourself. Now you’re pulling it back. And then it’s like, okay, unless you’re going to spend just that UTXO, depending on how you consolidate, you’re potentially taking away your privacy. And you just paid for it. You know, whether you got a bunch of free mixes or not, you paid something for it. So you need the tools. That’s the biggest thing is that you want those postmix spending tools. And that’s what makes Samourai great is that yes, they have the best implementation on actual coinjoin the peer to peer. You know, they have the five person coinjoin with a hundred percent entropy or near a hundred percent entropy. And then afterwards you want to ensure that your privacy stays strong and keep messing with deterministic links in the chain analysis bros. You want to make sure that it’s still good, right? So that’s what those specific spending tools are for. If you take those away you’re just kind of handcuffing yourself. So I think that’s the biggest, like Samourai Maxi mindset in my opinion.

Stephan Livera:

And I think it’s one of those things where it’s useful to think about it holistically, right? So now I guess the upfront kind of disclaimer, I’d give for most people is, look, if you’re storing stuff for the long term, you probably, I think hardware wallets are good for security. And then for people’s storing a lot of money, that’s where multisig comes in. But if you’re concern is mostly about privacy. And here’s another thing you, as an example, you are trying to acquire coins, non KYC, right? Meaning you bought those coins without giving your driver’s license or your passport to a Bitcoin exchange or a broker or a company. And you’ve done this all non KYC, whether that is mining coins or earning them, or buying them with cash, that kind of thing. Then I think maybe you could argue that less people know you have Bitcoin to begin with.

Stephan Livera:

And so it’s kind of that idea of you were trying to stay private and a little bit more under the radar. And this is one way you could do that. Now, that said. There might be some people out there who might think of it, like, okay, they stack most of their stuff into like a hardware wallet or a multisig. And then they would just have a small amount that they have for their non KYC stuff. And that’s what they’re using Samourai wallet and Ronin dojo and so on. But I’m just trying to give listeners a flavor of some of the different ways of thinking out there in the community. So they can choose for themselves. Right? Like giving you the knowledge and you make your own decision. What kind of philosophy am I mostly subscribing to? And which one do I want to try and pursue? Whether that’s Samourai maxi fully, or just using part of it where you opportunistically need the tools that Samourai wallet, can offer you, so I’m just giving people a bit of context.

Zelko:

It was the mantra for a very long time in Bitcoin, right? Do your own research. We can provide all the insights and you can provide all the interviews and all these great tools right. For everybody. But ultimately you have to still do your own research. Like that’s your Bitcoin, that’s your money? Like you need to do the research. Hopefully, and that’s what I like about the podcast is it’s really starts to get people to think and start to go down those rabbit holes because when you start to do all that, then you develop or practice and test whether it’s multisig or hardware wallets. Use testnet not enough people use testnet. Use Testnet. Practice. See if that’s what you want to do. If that’s something that you enjoy the experience or you think is something that is in your threat model, then absolutely go for it.

Zelko:

I get normies all the time that talk to me about it. Like family, friends that are older and that’s something that we talk about right. Is what’s going to work best for you and what’s going to work good for you in 10 years or for your kids. Right. So it’s, that’s really what it comes down to is what’s best for you because what’s best for me is not going to necessarily be what’s best for someone that’s retired and looking to just store some value for their kids. It’s not always going to be the same. So I’m all for it. Let people do their own research and definitely use Testnet practice, practice with things. Don’t just like try to lock yourself up multisig without doing any sort of practice. That’s what Testnet is meant for. And so practice, practice, practice.

Stephan Livera:

So let’s talk through for a user — Okay, let me just tell a little bit of a user story if you will. So let’s say this user is interested in privacy, right? So let’s say they either buy the product — they put it together, they flash on Ronin and they set it up their own Ronin Dojo. And then they’ve got Samourai wallet on their phone and they pair that with their Ronin dojo. And then let’s say they now buy some Bitcoin non KYC. Right. And maybe they want to start interacting more privately. Maybe they run their coins through a coinjoin using Whirlpool. And then now they might want to think about, well, how private am I? So can you tell us a little bit about Whirlpool and Whirlpool stat tool and what’s that achieving for them and why would they use it?

Zelko:

All right. So you want to find out right how strong your mixes are, right? In Samourai there’s forward and backward looking anonymity sets and to not get super in the weeds. It’s really how many people is your original transaction, that what we call TXzero, how many other people could that be? Right. How many other people are you technically in that crowd with? And that forward-looking is how many people of the same, that equal output. How many of those could you possibly be? Right. So every single time that not just you get selected for a remix, but anybody in your mix that you were in get selected for a mix, and then they get selected for a mix. So it’s this exponentially growing pool of crowded people that you’re hiding in. So what Whirlpool stat does is it is an application that Laurent, he developed him and TDev, right.

Zelko:

They developed this awesome tool to be able to calculate what, like how, how many your real net anonymity set is? How many people could you possibly be? So that’s where we’ll post that comes in. I know Pavel has sworn on his life that one day he’ll we’ll rewrite it or, sorry, is that Boltzmann?

Pavel Ševčík:

Oh, it was Boltzmann.

Zelko:

Okay. That’s when he’s going to rewrite and JavaScript, but yeah. Both of those are written in Python, but yeah, Whirlpool stat. That is how you’re going to find out, I guess, put your Whirlpool statistics are right. So we want to offer that as a tool for people, if they want to go ahead and do that. The only thing I’ll say is because there are so many mixes now last year, it wasn’t so big of a deal, right.

Zelko:

Because Whirlpool was still growing and we hadn’t had mobile mixing at the time. And now Whirlpool is huge liquidity with tons of mixes all the time. So it does take a little bit of time, but it’s always — I think it’s a cool thing to look up and just be like, man, I like, I got some serious privacy and I didn’t really pay that much for it. That’s what it’s going to, it’ll pull up and show you. So I haven’t looked at my, I haven’t looked at mine recently and I’m kind of interested because I’ve been keeping, I got some coins from way back that have been sitting in a Whirlpool. So it’s fun to see when you’re like, man, I’m with 10,000 other people that I could be like, that’s pretty freaking cool. So…

Stephan Livera:

So filling a little of the context as well for listeners who might not be familiar with how the Samourai wallet Whirlpool works is. So the idea is you will run some of your clients through that coinjoin. So that’ll go through TX zero and then be selected for a mix and go through a mix. And the philosophy here is that you want to keep things remixing and that by continually remixing, you’re just gaining more privacy and the overall pool the anonymity set of that overall pool is continually growing over time. So I guess that’s some of the background for listeners who, you know, maybe if you’re not familiar with that. Were there any other features you guys wanted to touch on from Ronin Dojo? Maybe the block Explorer or the mempool space.

Zelko:

Yeah. So mempool space. I am one of my projects coming up is going to be optimizing the integration for the latest one that the mempool space guys put in. I really liked their new mempool space that they offered for nodes to connect to. And that’s my goal. I wanted to optimized those. So I’m like low drag, if you will. So that, that’s one of my big projects that they got some really cool stuff on there, especially with some of the different call features, it’s really on the back end stuff, but there’s some really nice stuff in there. So hats off to them for that. And I mean, we still have the block Explorer, I think it’s 3.0,

Zelko:

3.0, just came out and that’s really nice in the biggest feature. I think that we have coming up that I’m excited about is I know we just released this new web UI, but we have a new one coming out. We have the UI developed, we just got to plug in the back end stuff whenever I put Pavel back to work. But the new web UI that we have right. Is 2.0, so web UI 2.0 is going to be, I guess the best way to think about it, in my opinion is kind of like taking, if you took umbrella and then you made it super cypherpunk, and you took out the app store aspect. So like it’s this like a super beautiful, really pretty UI that you’re going to be able to use. And it’s got that feel that you just kind of look at and you’re like, “Oh my God, this is awesome!”

Zelko:

You know, some of the other things that we’re going to add in there is a Whirlpool page, it’s similar to what you see in your mobile wallet for people that have done mobile mixing Samourai wallet, you’ll see, oh, this was a recent mix that I had, or it’ll tell you, right. How many [or] when was the last mix that you got, right. Like, that’s a pretty cool thing to see for just an everyday user like, oh, cool. I got 10 mixes today. I can see them pop up on my dashboard. So that obviously the new UI is going to have an actual graphic interface for Boltzmann. That’s going to look like KYCP if you haven’t been on KYCP I know I talked about earlier. Definitely go to it. It’s very fun. Very cool. We’re going to have almost the same thing. Just built into your own web UI. That’s backed by our own stuff. So you know, that, and along with some other cool features that I’m going to keep hidden, but we’re really excited for that integration. It’s going to be really, really exciting, super pumped. I know Pavel is excited cause he’s got some cool stuff to get added in there, but I would say that’s probably my favorite feature coming up.

Stephan Livera:

That’s cool. So listeners keep an eye out for that. And also we’ve got to get onto this whole open-source licensing topic as well, because I know this is something Zelko you have strong feelings on it. And so can you tell us a little bit about your difference of opinion, I guess, with some of the other projects out there and why you have chosen more of the FOSS philosophy with Ronin Dojo.

Zelko:

I’m really glad you asked that question. Okay. So I kind of touched on this with Matt Odell. So there’s FOSS, right? That I think most Bitcoin users are familiar with when, when you hear open source, right? You think FOSS or that’s what is generally referred to right. People normally think open source should be FOSS if you don’t know who FOSS is, that’s what we’re supposed to be referring to. Like Bitcoin, the software right. Is FOSS, right. Free, open source software free means not necessarily monetarily free. It means freedom. Right?

Pavel Ševčík:

It’s free as in freedom, not free beer.

Zelko:

So you can have a FOSS project that does have monetary intake and that doesn’t change anything. It’s the freedom aspect. So the biggest difference, right. And for people to really think about it, I think most people are familiar with the idea of copyright. So I have my own Ronin Dojo and Zelko dojo. If I copyright it. No one else can touch it. You can’t fork it. You can’t try to redistribute it. You can use it for your own personal stuff, but you cannot touch it. Right. It’s mine. I copyright it. I own the license. No one else can use it. That’s what copyright is. Right. So it’s moving to the right copyleft is really what a freedom of open source like FOSS is about. Right. So copyleft just means that yes, you can do whatever you want with my software.

Zelko:

You can copy it like right now for Ronin Dojo. If anyone wanted to fork it and do their own, the exact same thing, they absolutely could do that right now. Fork it, call it something else. Just try to get more users than me. And that’s a hundred percent good to go. I have no issues with that. The only difference that you just have to keep our license. So we use AGPL is like some context that I’m sure users probably don’t need to know about it. It’s just a form of a freedom, a free open-source software licensing. But so they just have to maintain that license. If they’re going to use my software, they can’t try to take mine and copyright it and closed source it. I think the disagreement that I get in with a lot of these other projects like I think start9 has their own license that they made the bank.

Zelko:

Same with Umbrel. MyNode has their own one is that they are limiting people’s ability to fork the code and redistribute the code. So their argument is that generally what I’ve seen, people’s argument from it is that, well, we put all this work in, right? And now someone just going to come and copy what we did and then have a farther starting point than we did. Right. We started from nothing. And now they’re just gonna cut us out from our knees. To me, that’s irrelevant. It’s irrelevant for me, for a couple of reasons, right? The software, especially when you’re talking about money or you’re talking about privacy or anything that you want to have a lot of eyes on, right? You want it to be the best. It should be free, open source software.

Zelko:

And as many people should be able to get it, fork it, use it because that’s how the industry grows. And that’s how the industry gets better. And you’re encouraging people, right. To have more competition because more competition drives better product. That’s just the reality of the world. Right? And like, we talked about that with myNode, right. myNode having the first dashboard, that was really pretty. Now we’re seeing everyone else start to follow the trend. It’s a good thing to have. And as you know, the co-founder of Ronin dojo, I want competition. I want other people to push us to step our game up because that’s how we get better. Like this whole big UI push? A lot of that was like, we have to catch up. We have to do all these things cause we don’t want to get left behind.

Zelko:

Right. But I’m not worried about other other projects taking something from me because I’m confident enough in my product. Right. if it’s competition, okay. Game on. I love competition. Maybe it’s just me. I love a good competition. I’ll fight for anything that I did. And then you’re also going to have to steal my users from me. So if I have a really strong user base, that’s really loyal. That loves my product. They’re not going to just dump me to go to this other thing that someone else clearly forked, they’re not going to do that. They’re going to use what they’re used to using. They have a good, strong, loyal base. If you don’t have a strong loyal base, then maybe you are afraid. I don’t know. I see this quote unquote, open source where its limitations on the freedom of the open source-ness without attacking too much.

Zelko:

I guess I see it as a little, I just see it as a bit of a weakness to me personally. I mean like six or seven years ago, right? Or even five years ago, if you had a, a, not a, like a free open source software license, like a true FOSS license, you would have, it would have been a joke. No one would take you seriously. Right? That’s that was never the name of the game in Bitcoin. That was like a foundational ethos of the cypherpunk movement was free open source software. If we can’t have that. And we’ve lost sight of that because we changed the name of open source quote, unquote, to open source viewable. I can view the source versus what I can do with it. That freedom aspect we’re playing semantics with the word of open source and open source was supposed to be parallel, right?

Zelko:

It should [be] equal to right. Free open source software freedom. And that’s what I worry about when I see a lot of these things and people still saying it’s open source because you have limitations on what people can do or how they can contribute and all this other stuff. And that’s not what this is about, man. This is Bitcoin where community people are supposed to help. People are supposed to be able to do this stuff or take this stuff and make it better. Someone took Ronin dojo, made it better and had their own fork and started their own group and company and whatever cool man, let’s, let’s do it. Like maybe we can work together. Maybe I can learn something from you. And that’s what it’s supposed to be. I mean, what else did I miss there?

Stephan Livera:

I think you covered a lot of things there. So I guess it’s an interesting — like from a personal perspective, I agree with you guys, right? Like I actually think that is the correct anti intellectual property position. That’s like the Stephan Kinsella, there is no intellectual property. The only property is private, like physical, private property. That’s what you can have a property right in. So, but I guess even though I agree with you, but just to kind of reflect the view that I’ve heard is that, well some of these other people, they feel like they need not, they feel like they believe that they need this as a business model. Right. So from their point of view, they say, well, if I were to have it actually fully FOSS, then they may not be able to fund the development of that software.

Stephan Livera:

And then I guess the other interesting argument is more just that. Well, yeah. so I guess firstly, that’s probably the main argument, right? And then I think there’s also one other point that’s interesting to touch on, which is that it might have an impact in the case of let’s say there was some difference of opinion on how to go with the soft fork and then somebody might not be able to downstream fork that code and change it to help users choose their own. Now, in this case, I think the Umbrel guys were trying to say, oh no, we’ll let you choose which one you want to go with. But I guess there’s still an argument to be had there on really is how free is it a as opposed to being source viewable. So anything you guys wanted to add there on that?

Pavel Ševčík:

First I want to reflect on what was said. I, as a software developer, I’ve seen plenty and plenty of software that was forked, and upgraded rightfully because original maintainers who weren’t able to maintain and upgrade the original like package or library or project or whatever, thanks to it being a free, open source software, not just source viewable, but it had open license, free license. So anyone could fork and publish changes. Thanks to this. Other users could publish their own versions. Actually, a lot of projects got saved because of this because otherwise they would be unmaintained. And if they wouldn’t have the free license, someone would have to write a fresh, totally new library. So think [of this] license people are just able to take what exists and build upon it.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. I think that’s a good point because it’s kind of, it allows people to then take something and remix it and that’s really the beauty of the open source ethos. And so I can sort of personally, I side more with that side of the argument, but I guess, yeah. I think it’s one of those things where in the Bitcoin industry, you’re obviously you’re going to have disagreements with people who you still like, right. I still am a fan of Umbrel. I’m still a fan of these other projects. I just, this is probably one point where I disagree with them on it, but you know, so be it right. I think that’s kind of the open source aspect of it. But I think it’s also interesting to talk a little bit about, and probably coming to that question of business models and support model. So do you guys want to touch on that for Ronin Dojo?

Pavel Ševčík:

I see where mynode, Umbrel, and Start9 are coming from. They want to protect their product. They don’t want, they’ve put money and time into it. I totally get it. I put a lot of time into Ronin Dojo. We all have and stayed, get some investments and so on. So they don’t want someone to just come fork off their product, make money off their work. But at the same time, I view their behavior as unethical or at least dishonest because they are pretending to be open source software, at least Umbrel, because they don’t have open source license yet they do accept pull requests on GitHub openly. So they are actually making other people work for them for free while not being able to fork their software. So Umbrel accepting these full requests is actually breaking their own license which is like funny. I don’t know. So I think, yeah, dishonest, unethical, however you want to see it. Zelko what’s your view on this?

Zelko:

Okay. It’s hard to follow up on that one. I’ll touch on the business model. I think that, like you said, I understand, right? I understand that you want to protect your investment. Maybe it has a lot to do with the investors that you get involved with. You know, some investors, they put a lot of money in and they want to make sure it’s protected. That’s why I’m a big advocate and believer of being very careful about the investors that you take. But we can point to projects that have, I mean, obviously we’re Samourai Maxis, but Samourai wallet is 100% open source and they have an amazing business model that no one touches, right? No one is going to leave Samourai, like someone could fork Samourai wallet today and make ninja wallet, run their own. You know, I don’t know, not Whirlpool it’s called tidal pool.

Zelko:

They can do that and do their own thing and be totally in their own. Right. But ultimately, right. You’re it comes kind of back to that loyalty and that user base people want to support and want to go for the product. That number one should be the best. And number two, the one that they trust the most and the ones that they are the most comfortable with that’s on you as a company to really keep your buy-in to keep your users and keep pushing. Right. Cause you know, we’re going to have our own business model. Like we said, we’re selling these full nodes we’re are selling both cases where some, which the case is 3d printed cases that we’re making, which we have a new one, that Crazy K is making that’s awesome. It actually looks like a dojo, like a legitimate like dojo dojo.

Zelko:

That’s actually really cool. We’re open sourcing those. We’re open source and the 3d cases that we made before, we’ll publish those on our site and anybody that wants them, please let me know. I’ll send them to you right now, but we’re totally cool with that. You know, if someone’s just wanting to print them and sell them as long as it’s open source and other people can download it like you can do you. I’m not worried about that threat model. I’m not my threat model is not my competition trying to steal my business revenue. And if you are, you should look into, you should have a serious thought about how can I change my business model so that I don’t have to worry about that. I don’t have to worry about competition. It’s more than just a white Knight, I guess if you will like being FOSS is not just like a, oh yes.

Zelko:

Look at me I’m so great. Cause I’m open source, I’m free open-source software and it’s not a thing that most normal people understand. Right. I remember having this conversation with my wife. Right. She’s like can anybody just take like, do what you do? And I’m like, yup. And she’s like, whoa. Where is like the advantage. And I was like, well, my software. And she was like, well, you just said they can take yourself where I was like, yup. Like it’s just this like idea, that blows people’s mind, you know? But I think the fact that if it’s truly free open source software, almost like a breath of fresh air for people to know that like anybody can use this. Anybody can take it, anybody can do anything they want with it. And it makes it more trustworthy in my opinion.

Zelko:

And that’s why Bitcoin was always big on it. And it’s part of the cypherpunk ethos, the business model that you have to make it, you have to make something that works for you. You know, Samourai wallet has a great one with the Whirlpool fees, ricochet, et cetera. Like they, they have a great model. That’s really hard to fight unless you’re going to have the liquidity to back it with us, we’re selling the plug and play nodes, support models. That’s what we’re looking for. I have no intention of selling. Not that it’s a bad model, but I have no intention of selling like a premium option. We thought about it. Right. But we want everyone to be able to use the tools for free if they choose to do it that way that’s because that’s why we did this. We built this so that as many people could access and have access to the tools. Yeah.

Stephan Livera:

You mentioned the support model. So can you tell us a little bit about that and what’s the offer there for listeners who are maybe they’re thinking, oh, it’s kind of hard. I don’t really know how to do this. What’s the support model you’ve got a premium support model as well. So if you could outline what that is also?

Zelko:

Okay. Absolutely. So we have, we have a silver and gold, I believe it’s $50 for six months or a hundred for a year. But don’t quote me on that. It’s been a minute since I looked at that, that’s where you get premium access to any of our developers, pretty much 24/7, because between Pavel being and where he’s from we have US-based people and then we have Bitcoin QnA is also, you can attack and use. We’re there 24/7, and we’re there to help hold your hand and get you through whatever you need to. And we actually get a lot of people who have been joining just for almost like a thank you. And then if they need anything they’re there. So that support model it’s great because you know that we’re always here for you.

Zelko:

We’ve always been very active in the chats. I know you know that, but you know, it was a way for us to kind of help offset some of the time time allocated and that’s why it is big. You know, I definitely do understand why any software company right. Wants to be able to pay their people, right? It’s not sustainable. If you don’t have a business model, you can’t just make free products forever and expect that project to sustain itself. It’s just not a reality. I think more wallets and more different software. Add-Ons right. They need to have some business model. Otherwise it’s just not sustainable. So yeah, for us, like the support model works, we’re not in this to get rich by any means. We’re really not. We’re here to, because we believe in the product that we’re pushing out and we believe in the tools and the ethos that we started with was to try to get this to as many people as we could.

Zelko:

And that’s what we stick to. So yeah, we’re not here to get rich, the plug and play node. Is it a way for us to generate some revenue for ourselves? Absolutely. You know, we’ve been doing this for two years for free. So a lot of struggle, time and hardship on the way, a lot of learning for people like me, not so much for Pavel, cause he’s already a real developer, but it’s a way to be able to focus on what we’re doing and not have to bend the knee to investors that don’t see eye to eye with us. It allows us to focus. If we can support ourselves, then we don’t have to worry about what other people want. We can build the tools that we want and that our users want without any repercussion.

Zelko:

So again, back with that free open source, it’s it goes back to competition for me, you really shouldn’t be that worried if your product’s that good and you believe in your product, it shouldn’t matter if someone tries to take it because yours is going to be better. You know, that should always be our mindset. And if someone builds something that’s a little bit better or whatever, but you have a free source open software, they have to have the same license. So you can also then take back what they did, right. So you can remake takes and remix and back and forth. And that’s how you build better, better products. So to me, it’s a non-issue it’s kind of a cop-out. Again, I like that there is competition in the space, whether they’re FOSS or not that’s okay. But we will definitely remain FOSS. You know, they can keep building it’s good competition for us. Cause if they’re not with us there’s somewhere else. We’re going to continue to build something really awesome. Something that our users are happy with.

Stephan Livera:

Nice. And so just to give a bit of context for listeners, there’s a lot more users using Ronin dojo as well compared to the early days. So do you want to just give a bit of — give us a picture on hearing from new users coming in and joining the community.

Zelko:

Yeah. Pavel, you looked like you wanted to say something first.

Pavel Ševčík:

Well, I have one last thing. Just a quick sentence. If anyone forks your products and you aren’t able to compete with them, either hire them or capitulate. Not the other way around.

Zelko:

He was ready.

Stephan Livera:

Yes. How’s the users growth been?

Zelko:

Oh, I mean, it’s the way I like to think about it, right? We’re probably the most niche market of the most niche market, right. Because I mean, Bitcoin’s niche people like, so Bitcoin’s already small. Then people that want to run a node smaller than people that want to run a node and are only Samourai users are even smaller, with that still said, right. We’re still growing all the time. It’s actually really, really cool to see because not only do we get to see how they’re interacting and why they’re switching over because we get a lot of people that are coming over from either myNode or Umbrel or, or they’re just like, I just want to be here, which is great. So that’s really cool to see, I know we’re working on a refugee, we’ve been saying this for a long time, but we’re trying to keep building a refugee script to integrate from anyone and everywhere, which is really cool.

Zelko:

But the other thing is with all new users that come in, right, they like find new bugs and find new things for us, like out of nowhere. And we’re like, oh, that’s awesome. I’m so glad that you brought that up. Now let me fix it, which is cool. Cause we’re always trying to help people. And then it just makes our product more and more resilient, you know? And I’m sure that it’s the way for everybody. It’s just it’s cool to see so many people interact and them learning. And the other thing is just seeing their eyes open to like my favorite thing is legitimately seeing someone go, I like went to your guys’ Wiki page and I really want to learn how to do the PGP verification I’m like, yes, like you are in the right spot. You have like, it’s just, it’s cool to see them make this like jump because I mean, even myself, rarely, sometimes if it’s software or whatever that I trust, right?

Zelko:

Like sometimes I’ll be lazy and not do that. I’m not gonna lie to you to the users. Right. But you know, you start doing it and you’re like, oh yeah, I remember how cool this is. Right. And you like, people’s first time. They’re like, this is so cool. Like I just verified the code. That’s common. And I see the key and I see Zelko and like whatever. And I’m like, see, this is like, that “Aha!” Moment is just it’s. So gratification is so high. It’s just, it’s really cool. And then you see them like they post a pictures or screenshots of their new UI and they’re like, this is great. Like I’m so excited every time I see it, it just makes me remember why we’re doing it. And you just get that feeling all over again, extra juice that you need.

Zelko:

I mean, and I got the same thing at guns and Bitcoin. We did demos. I did a presentation, but seeing the people who some never touched Bitcoin before, and they left with a full node, that was pretty cool. And then seeing other people like go through like, oh, well I use this node and implementation and why should I use this? And then they kind of go through this whole process and you just see them open up. And they’re like, I want to walk away with a Ronin dojo right now. And you’re like, it’s such a cool feeling, seeing people really excited for something that you’ve worked so hard for and having a great team that works with you all the time. If I’m too busy, they hold it down for me, which is awesome. It’s a really, really cool feeling. We’ve had some really good users, so I’m really happy about it.

Stephan Livera:

Awesome. So let’s leave listeners a good point to go and find you guys online. And I would encourage listeners out there who were interested in privacy, go and check out RoninDojo.io. So Zelko and Pavel where in people find the project and where can they find it?

Zelko:

Yeah, I’ll do the project and then I’ll give your time there, Pavel. So RoninDojo.io is our main page. Our Wiki pages, just Wiki.RoninDojo.io. Definitely check that out. If you’re insured at all, I would say that’s almost like the best spot to start. It’s got everything in there. Our code base, it’s all linked in there and that’s on GitLab. It’s all self hosted. And then on Twitter, @BTCxZelko same on telegram. I’m always on telegram, but my DMs are always open for anybody for anything.

Pavel Ševčík:

Yeah. You can just find me in our telegram group. I bet I’m the only Pavel in there. You can find me on Twitter as well.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. Awesome. Well, I’ll include the links in the show nodes guys. But yeah, I think that was really great and hopefully people go and take their privacy more seriously and give Ronin Dojo a go. So thanks for joining me guys.

Zelko:

Thanks for having us. I appreciate it.

Pavel Ševčík:

Thank you again.