R0ckstar dev & Pavlenex of BTCPay Server and other projects (Strike, Bitcoin Smiles, Bitcoin Design) rejoin me on the show to talk about Bitcoin, Open Source community ethos, and how it can lead to career opportunities. 

We chat:

• BTCPay 4 years on
• Open Source for hiring
• Bitcoinerjobs.com
• How open source projects mature
• How to grow the project
• How to move on from a project
• R0ckstar’s big announcement
• What’s coming with BTCPay Server

Links:

• Twitter: @r0ckstardev
• Twitter: @pavlenex 
• BTCPay Server
• Bitcoin Smiles
• Bitcoin Design
• Strike

Sponsors: 

• Swan Bitcoin
• Hodl Hodl Lend
• Compass Mining
• Braiins.com
• Unchained Capital (code LIVERA)
• CoinKite.com (code LIVERA)

Stephan Livera links:

• Show notes and website
• Follow me on Twitter @stephanlivera
• Subscribe to the podcast
• Patreon @stephanlivera

Podcast Transcription:

Stephan Livera:

Rockstar and Pavlenex, welcome back to the show.

Pavlenex:

Hey, Stephan, it’s awesome to be here. Thanks for having us once again.

R0ckstar Dev:

Yeah, I say the same. Hey, Stephan. Thanks for having us back.

Stephan Livera:

Fantastic. Well it’s really great to chat with you guys again. BTCPay Server has now hit, as I think you were saying, we’ve gone over four years now that the project has been going, and is now into the fifth year. And yeah, really interesting just to see where it has gone as a FOSS free open source project, and the opportunities and things that have come to everyone for being a part of it. And other projects that you guys are both contributing with and working with now. R0ckstar, do you want to just give us a little bit of your thoughts on what it was like in the early days of BTCPay, and where it is at now?

R0ckstar Dev:

Well, it was always amazing because really, one of the main reasons I joined BTCPay Server is that I wanted to code together with Nicolas [Dorier] for quite a while. We go a while back, even before 2017, since both of us were contributing to this website code project. But, amazing then—even more amazing now, when you look at how the project has developed over four years. A full four years, and then 50 are going strong. And then you look at all the people you’ve met along the journey, including you Stephan, and all the support you’ve given to BTCPay Server over the years. So, amazing then, even more amazing now, and I can’t help but become a lover of open source, which I am now.

Stephan Livera:

Awesome And Pavlenex, let’s hear a little bit from you. As I understand, this is one of the first, if not the first, open source projects you became involved with as a contributor?

Pavlenex:

Yeah that’s correct. BTCPay Server is the first project that I really started loving and got involved in seriously contributing to it. It helped me find my place under the sun. And yeah, previously I contributed to a few open source projects, but it was more like on the translating side of things. So BTCPay is the one that Nicolas opened the door to and invited us to help it grow, and amazing to see the growth of the software, but even more amazing that we really all became very close friends while we developed open source Bitcoin software. So, quite a journey.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. That’s really cool to see. And I think for some listeners, they might be thinking, Oh, I’m not technical. I can’t—I’m not a developer. Therefore it’s not for me. What would you say for that?

Pavlenex:

Well, since I’m not a developer here, I guess I will reply to this one. Anyone can contribute to an open source software. It’s a wrong opinion that only developers build the open source project. Without translators, without people providing support, writing documentation, even recording videos—which is also how I started open source—is just as easy for people. So there are so many things you can do in open source, and I’m certain that any skill can be used. So if you are just thinking like, I don’t have skills—yes you do. We all do have a certain thing that we are good at, and we all can contribute and help open source. So regardless of your skills, just get involved. Start talking to people and it’ll be, I promise, an awesome journey if you’re patient enough to live through the usual cycle of an open source contributor.

R0ckstar Dev:

See, this is what non-technical contributors keep telling to themselves—I’m worth something. No, in all seriousness, there is so much to do on open source projects. And then also, open source projects help develop people. We couldn’t develop Pavlenex into a coder, but there is like a secret: he actually runs Visual Studio or VS Code or something and tests instances locally. So for most people that would count as a technical contributor, as a tester. But no, it’s all about believing in a mission and then finding a place, doing whatever it takes. And you’ll do fine in any open source project.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. And R0ckstar, I know you’re known for taking a role of helping mentor new contributors is as well. And I think Pavlenex, you are also very involved in a role in like coordination, project management aspects of it as well. So could you comment a little bit on what that journey looks like for a new person coming into the project, and then, over time, as they develop and perhaps take on other roles inside the project?

R0ckstar Dev:

Yeah. I must say in open source it is, and why people like it also, it’s more unique to—and tailored to—each contributor. Because first there is that time where you get to know new contributors, and then there is always a transition period because people come in and they’re all excited and say, Oh, I’m going to do this, I’m going to do that. And then you see if they will actually do it. Especially as BTCPay Server has grown in popularity, then really you get messages every day—people doing something. And then now we also have a situation where programs like Summer of Bitcoin that everyone mentions, for example, then sends some student interns to contribute. So I would say it’s about that, and that’s why also you should be looking into open source projects, because there is potential to tailor how you will work on that project more to your skills and qualities. But Pavlenex, yeah, also takes a lot of effort into training new people for projects, soI’m curious to hear his insight as well.

Pavlenex:

Yeah, I just wanted maybe to show how my journey has been, because BTCPay Server and open source really helped me grow personally. Before BTCPay I was more an e-commerce type of guy running shops, and then came BTCPay Server. I started on the very simplest tasks because Nicolas and R0ckstar opened the door—that is very important that you have an open source project where maintainers really want contributors. There are projects that don’t want contributors. There is just one guy running it. They don’t want complexities. They don’t want community. They’re just having fun. And then you have an open source project like BTCPay Server where it started with Nicolas also having fun and coding. And then it grew, because he delegated and got people involved. So they opened the door to me and I simply provided support first in our channel on Slack. I helped people register. And then I took notes on the things people were struggling with, I reported back to them, and that’s how we started talking to each other and getting to know each other. So then I started recording videos, and then I wrote technical documentation. Me, the e-commerce guy, I never was technical enough. And I was writing documentation, recording videos, and then I realized, Well, okay, maybe somebody else can do this. And this is how in open source—and I’m sure R0ckstar will fill on this—you create space for other people. You reach a certain level and then you create space for other people to fill in. And then you do some other task. Then I started helping them developers with the release cycles and things like that. So it’s a very interesting journey and yeah, you personally grow to it, but also I think what is very important is that you leave space for others. So it’s not that people are greedy in open source so that they take a certain position and don’t want to on board people. And there are so many topics now where we can tackle like on boarding—how does that start? Maybe R0ckstar wants to—because he on boarded so many contributors, including the ones that are part of the core team like @britttttkelly. So maybe he can also talk about how a new contributor is on boarded in the first place. How did they arrive at the project, and how do you get them to commit, actually?

R0ckstar Dev:

May I jump in there to say: you described it well. It’s like you’re a scout. You scout out an area and build out the area, and then you find someone that will take that area of the project. And yeah, it’s that 1-2 process, basically, that we have saw repeat itself over and over. That’s what I would recommend, not only for people joining—that you can see that there is an area for you to contribute—but people that are already in open source projects and want to get more contributors in.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. And I think it’s also valuable for people to have some perspective about how new contributors might start. Because, as an example, there may be some people who already have a full-time job, and they already are doing their normal job, but they just want to do something extra on top. This is where their passion is—and that’s for some people. And then for some other people, maybe they’re coming in and it’s more like they are trying to get more involved in the Bitcoin space and contributing in an open source project is how they can demonstrate their skill and show their portfolio to future actual employers who are going to pay them to do that. And in other cases, maybe the project gets sponsored and there’s funding from that. So maybe you guys could just talk a little bit about what that looks like for people who might not be as familiar with how it works.

Pavlenex:

As you were talking, Stephan, I was already thinking about something else. So this will be a completely random thought about open source, and sorry for rambling a little bit, but I just realized, as you were talking about how people get on boarded, I realized that most of the contributors actually got on boarded through one-on-one conversation with people. So it’s people who on board people. I remember we had such an extensive documentation on BTCPay Server, how you can contribute. We wrote so many articles, recorded so many videos. But just thinking back about it, I think it’s those one-on-one conversations we had with people, those are contributors that we helped grow and got on boarded on the project. So that’s the cycle. And I’m sure R0ckstar can also confirm this, because I don’t remember that we got a contributor who simply read documentation, watched a video and started contributing. It was always like—maybe there were certain cases—but it was always like a one-on-one conversation, us mentoring them in a way, and helping them get around. So I think that that’s very important to talk about when it comes to getting people involved in open source in the first place.

R0ckstar Dev:

It’s definitely like that, because even going back to the start of this conversation when I said I joined BTCPay Server because I wanted to code with Nicholas, you know? So it’s that connection that you already have. So maybe you are a user of some open source project, like Pavlenex was, and then he joined, and Nicolas called him Bitcoin Shirt for like three years because he had a Bitcoin shirt website and was a user of BTCPay Server. So that’s what I would encourage people, is see which project in Bitcoin or in open source—either one you like—and where you would just enjoy spending time with other people. And that should show you the way. And then if you are already in the project, it’s also about what Pavlenex said—number one: do you want to grow the project and open space for new people? Or maybe you don’t. Maybe you like your little kingdom the way it is. But then yeah, you make it obvious to people so they can find another project. So, all about that. What speaks to you—meaning.

Pavlenex:

Yeah. And I think what Stephan told us, that people can join in open source so that they can gain skills for those who—when they are applying for jobs—get, in a way, a portfolio. Especially in the Bitcoin space, I haven’t encountered a company that really doesn’t value contributions to an open source project. And I’m sure, especially in Bitcoin. R0ckstar, you can probably confirm this since you’re at Strike, but I do think there are people in this world—and I’m specifically living in a country where we don’t have internships. Our colleges aren’t as good at on boarding you to get a job, so we all have to do it ourselves. That’s how I think that other people—no matter where they are from—they just get this opportunity to work with awesome people, build, and they can then list this in their CV. I built this, I helped with this. It is very important if you’re on a career path in Bitcoin that you start contributing to an open source project. Even from that angle, though there are people who probably view things from different angles. There are people who simply use the software, want it to be better. There are people who find it just simply fun and they want to get involved. And then you have people who are building, in a way, a portfolio, and that’s a very interesting angle that you now unwrapped, Stephan. I think it’s very, very important.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. And R0ckstar, do you want to add anything there in terms of—I’m sure you can add some insight there. Obviously you’re working at Strike now also, and I’m sure the open source angle is important for you from a hiring context also, correct?

R0ckstar Dev:

Correct. If you have a great GitHub profile, you go in one funnel. If you don’t, well bad for you and expect to be more evaluated and tested. When I see a great GitHub profile with contributions all over the place, especially in open source, then you know you’re getting someone who is in that open source and Bitcoin ethos, and there doesn’t even need to be evaluation because you can see how does this person interact with others. What’s the code quality of this person. It’s all there, it’s organized, and as soon as you see that kind of portfolio—and anyone that I saw over the interview process at Strike that had a good GitHub profile, I mean, they pretty much passed. And I’ve done. At this point, hundreds of interviews for Strike over last year or so. And yeah, not a single one didn’t pass, whoever had a great GitHub profile.

Pavlenex:

Yeah. I just wanted to add that in a company, you need to listen to your manager or whoever it is to build something. There isn’t as much creative freedom as there is in open source. People keep telling me like, In open source, there are way too many barriers for people to get on boarded. Well, guess what? It’s not true. In open source, you can have somebody building something, showcasing it to the community, and it will immediately get accepted if it is something that aligns with the project goals or whatever it is. In a company, it doesn’t work. There are so many stakeholders which need to sign off on something. In open source, you get way too much freedom and creative freedom to build, and you can very easily create projects, build portfolios, and excel, because there is no way for anybody to limit you. So your freedom is like open source is freedom—in any aspect of it. I just wanted to add that, that people should really consider it. It may look hard, it may look closed, but it really isn’t.. Just give it a try and you’ll see. It’s very easy to grow through open source, and people who didn’t have that chance to work with companies I think can really, really use open source to get the job later on. And you can compete with people who work in big corporations just by being an open sourcer, very easily.

R0ckstar Dev:

Because in companies, you can even see that model of: you do work, and then the end goal is some kind of reference or recommendation signed by, as you said Pavlenex, your manager. In open source, you are building your portfolio on your own, and there is nothing to sign. It’s just: your GitHub profile speaks for itself.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. And that profile that you are building up can also lead in other directions. And actually just being part of an open source project can lead to other opportunities and things coming up. And I think that’s true for both of you gentlemen. Pavlenex, do you want to just tell us a little bit about how being involved with the BTCPay Server project led to your involvement in other projects?

Pavlenex:

Yeah. Well, as I mentioned earlier, I started growing through BTCPay Server. We started on boarding other people who took over certain tasks that I was doing. And then I was left with a little bit more time. And I think it is very important, especially in the Bitcoin space—which moves so fast—that people are building and getting involved in as many communities as their capacity allows them to. So one of my goals was to get involved in some other projects, work with some other people, build some other stuff that I can learn from and then implement it back into BTCPay Server. So thanks to R0ckstar, who was first mentoring me, [he was] like, Well, you need something else. And that’s also how open source is great. We talked to each other like true friends and he started telling me, Well, you need to look into expanding, doing something else. And then I started—I applied for, formerly, Square Crypto. Now it’s spiral. I applied for a grant. First, I became a part of their Bitcoin design community, which builds free and open source tools for designers and application builders, so that it is easier for them to have UIs. And today we are designing Bitcoin Design Guide, which should allow people to build applications on top of Bitcoin way easier, with something that is already tested. And a bunch of designers basically already designed them. So I started doing that, and then it led me to many other projects that I got involved in. Regardless of which projects we are involved in, that’s how BTCPay Server is also like—all of us are involved. There isn’t a single contributor who is doing BTCPay Server-only. From all of us, we are all involved in many projects, because it is important that we bring this knowledge to bring back to BTCPay Server and to other projects. That’s why we are involved in this many projects. And I’m also part now of Bitcoin Smiles community and a few more. But yeah, I just wanted to let you know that it is very important that people are spread around different projects—if they can. Because there are so many people building awesome stuff that you just don’t want to miss. You need to get into it and talk to people and build stuff.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. Anything to add from your side, R0ckstar?

R0ckstar Dev:

Yeah. There is Bitcoin Smiles because you kickstarted it, Pavlenex. It just didn’t happen on its own. But yeah, we talked about profile-building, and it’s not one-way street. By contributing to an open source project, you’re also building up your profile, your portfolio, and then other people see it. That’s how I met Jack Mallers, because he saw what an amazing rock star developer I am and we hit it off here in Chicago. He was also—he built his own profile by contributing and coding LN Zap. So you just start being part of the open source community and then get connected with people. And it helps you grow because it’s all out there, especially when you connect it with a Twitter presence, become part of Bitcoin Twitter, and then you grow. So for me, besides BTCPay Server, I started contributing to LN Zap on and off, and then when Strike was starting, Jack just called me in and said, Help me out to build this—I also know you have startup experience. And a little bit later, here I am—VP of Engineering at Strike. Being in those hundreds of interviews now—yeah, it’s not open source. It’s more hiring people for regular jobs.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. And I think this is actually a good question for you as well, R0ckstar, just that comparison between the fiat career versus a career in Bitcoin. So if somebody’s out there, and let’s say they’re working in a more fiat job and they’re thinking about whether they should work in a Bitcoin-related job or a Bitcoin company, what are your thoughts on that?

R0ckstar Dev:

No, they shouldn’t. They should just stick with their fiat job and buy Bitcoin. No, I joke about it a lot, especially in the context of what’s happening now. All the fiat jobs switching to remote, and then, because in most of the fiat jobs, you’re part of that high-velocity trash economy, how can you have a meaningful job post in a position where everything is like, We need to launch the product tomorrow? And the lifecycle of projects will be three months or six months. But no, honestly, if you are in a fiat job where the demands of the job are not too much and you can coast by—yeah, I tell people, Maybe should stick in that fiat job and then just buy Bitcoin. But if you do want meaning, you do want purpose, Bitcoin is that new frontier, and that’s why you almost have this FOMO that—I see it, being part of Strike. We have so many people wanting to join Strike to partake in this Bitcoin revolution that’s happening. And I think it’s individual for each and every one of us. If you hear the calling of Bitcoin and it’s so strong—yeah, go for it. But what I don’t want to see for most people is that idea that you can directly translate a lot of stuff from a fiat job. If you’re joining Bitcoin, you need to be aware: it is a new frontier, but then it is the wild west, in the sense that you need to have quite that capability. You can’t just have a specialized job post that’s, Oh, you do this one thing. No, you need to be willing to really do whatever it takes—take on multiple responsibilities. And I think each of us on this podcast can talk to that, because you, Stephan, also you are part of Swan Bitcoin, and it’s not, Oh, this job is well defined and cut out. No, there is a lot of figuring out to do, and if you want to partake and make your place in the Bitcoin revolution, expect that. That’s the only thing I would tell people to focus on.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. And to be clear, I’m not saying everyone has to quit their fiat job and go join a Bitcoin job. Of course it is a different consideration for everybody. But for some people, it might be that this is closer to their passion, or they might really feel more rewarded by this. And maybe they might even be willing to take a pay cut to do it, if it even comes to that. But, Pavlenex, I wanted to get your thoughts as well: how should people out there think about it? Did you have any perspective to share with them if they’re currently in a fiat job and thinking they would like to work in the Bitcoin world in some way? How would you think about that?

Pavlenex:

Yeah. R0ckstar said one key word which is: meaning. And of course not everyone can find meaning through contributing or working on a Bitcoin job. But I’m seeing it way more with our contributors, finding a meaning. Like, do you really want to work on something and earn money, or do you actually want to work on something meaningful that will change the lives of so many people? And I do have one tip for people who are uncertain, and this is where our story about contributing to open source really connects well: just start contributing to an open source project. See how that works. Let’s give BTCPay Server as an example. You have people who come here and tell us, I want to switch my career and start working at a Bitcoin company—how do I do that? And even some of our contributors, it was a transition for them, like it took quite a few months. We told them, Start slowly. Start contributing to this open source project and see if that works for you, because it is chaotic. It is not as structured as it is in a big corporation. And that’s the beauty of it. Finding meaning through chaos is awesome for me. And for me it works, but it might not work for you. So one way to see if you will fit in—because most of the Bitcoin companies are taking the ethos from open source—and there is a line that’s getting thinner and thinner, and I’m certain that at a certain point, all of them are in a way an open organization, so everything is transparent and open. We are going into that direction, the way I see it. But yeah, just start contributing to open source. It will not only help you land that job easier, but it will also help you decide if Bitcoin and the pace of development is right for you. Perhaps you prefer tighter organizations, and you prefer software being developed slower. But if you’re young, like you don’t want to miss it, like it is awesome. It gives you meaning. And I really wholeheartedly recommend people to just start doing it.

Stephan Livera:

Excellent. And I think it is important also to point out that not everyone has to go get a Bitcoin job. For some people, it is just a side thing. They have their normal job doing whatever they’re already doing and they just want to contribute to some project. And then there are other people who go all the way and they’re saying, No, I want to actually get a Bitcoin job. And I guess while we’re here, we might as well mention bitcoinerjobs.com. So this is actually a project where you can find—it’s basically one website where there’s a whole stack of Bitcoin companies who are hiring. And so, whether you are a Bitcoin company looking for employees—you can go and post your profiles there—or if you’re an employee, or a candidate, you can go post a profile there. I think you can even do that pseudonymously as well. That’s something for listeners out there. This would be probably a useful resource for some of you out there. Any other thoughts on this, guys?

R0ckstar Dev:

Yeah. If you apply over at bitcoinerjobs.com for Strike, you get to talk with Uncle R0ckstar. So now we’ll have listeners applying. But no, other than that, a Bitcoin Twitter profile is definitely very helpful in all the hundreds of interviews I’ve done. GitHub, a must. Stack Overflow for technical contributors, definitely. And then for non-technical people, I mean I don’t even need to tell—they already probably have LinkedIn. But on that LinkedIn, just see that someone gave you a recommendation, obviously. What we talked about transitioning from fiat world, where it doesn’t matter what you did, what matters is who can give you a reference and sign it. What else? Check your resume for spelling mistakes. At this point I’ve seen thousands of resumes, and a good resume really stands out. Besides that, a cover letter. Really like, if you really want some position, you just need to write how you will contribute to that job that you’re applying for. It doesn’t need to be, Oh, please, give me this job. It’s even better when it’s not—when you say directly, Hey, this is what I want to do. But besides that—yeah, pretty much I think we covered all the bases.

Stephan Livera:

Excellent. And so I guess bringing it back to the broader idea around open source projects and contributions: what about dealing with your role changing? So Pavlenex, you were mentioning some of this earlier as well. How do you deal with your role changing over time? And how do you actually open space for other contributors?

Pavlenex:

Yeah. I think that’s a stage in which all of us at BTCPay Server were at, at some point. It’s a tough decision and tough situation—until you realize it is an awesome thing to happen. At first, you are a little bit scared like, Well, am I being obsoleted from the project? Am I good enough to even contribute to this project? What do I do? But then you realize that you just have to accept that you personally have been given this opportunity to contribute and to grow, and that by letting other people in, it is even more rewarding to see contributors who are on this project who we’ve helped to get in and grow. So I’m sure R0ckstar has probably a better philosophical perspective on it, but in my view, it is very simple. You just advance from one thing to another and always need to mentor somebody and give them space because yeah—this is a blessing, and just allowing other people to feel the same. It is even better than you working on all of these tasks. Delegating, on boarding people, and just accepting that at a certain point, it needs to be decentralized. There shouldn’t be any central points of failure, and it is good at open source. There are many people who can take on a certain task, and it shouldn’t depend on solely one contributor.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. And R0ckstar, how do you deal with the roles changing over time?

R0ckstar Dev:

Listen, Pavlenex invited my philosophical approach. So Livera, you’ll need to excuse me, but I’m going to go full out and say that I see it as like you’re this old wise turtle that I am, and you’re growing armor. And then you grow this armor, and it’s time to leave it there for a new youngin turtle to move in and grow into that armor. So that’s what Uncle is doing. I’m just growing a bunch of armor for little turtles that then make it their home. And that’s also why, when we previously mentioned that there are some open source projects where you have one person that’s sticking with that project for 5-10 years, and it’s just—they grow to like that specific armor they are building, and now there is no place for new contributors to move in. But to me, the success of BTCPay Server over the last four years has caused the nature of my contributions to change. I was the guy that was coding pretty much with Nicolas, and now I’m a guy that, if I start coding and criticizing PRs and doing my own PRs, then there will not be a space for new contributors. So you should just be comfortable with whatever. Identifying—as we also said in the beginning of the conversation—you’re scouting out. You’re seeing what is this new area that I can scout out, fortify, and then give it over to someone. Because just think about it: it will develop you immensely. And it’s an open source project, so if you do fail, it’s not like you’ll have some boss to criticize you and say, Oh, you did terrible on Livera. That was a terrible podcast. It’s like, No, you have that freedom of being who you are and giving it your best shot. Then, over time, you improve. So you just need to be willing to fail and then let it go now if you do fail.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. Pavlenex, I also wanted to get your views around the Bitcoin Smiles project. This one is relatively new and maybe not everyone has heard about it. So just give a bit of an overview for us. What is the Bitcoin Smiles project and what have you learned?

Pavlenex:

So the Bitcoin smiles project is a community project of two communities, BTCPay Server, and Bitcoin Design, that we kickstarted in order to provide free, critical dental care for elderly people living in rural areas of El Salvador. So we simply started as a small crew of two to three people who started a crowdfunding campaign via BTCPay Server, raising at least 1 Bitcoin in order to help 50 people get their critical dental care. And that includes everything like prosthesis, checkups, everything that these people never had any access to, to even go to a doctor, let alone get their teeth fixed. So we called it Bitcoin Smiles because, at the end of the day, it’s really just Bitcoin bringing smiles to these people. So right now it’s like five or six contributors from different Bitcoin projects helping evolve this community project to maybe one day into a proper non-profit. But so far we helped—I think 15 patients got fully examined. They’ve got full smiles right now. And you can go to bitcoinsmiles.org and you can see the awesome stories of those people, because all of these patients really have unique stories. And I just want to give a shout out to Enrique who is doing dental checkups at his clinic in El Zonte there. A really hardworking man doing all of this work. We are just covering the cost of the material and he’s doing it all free for them. So awesome to see this project grow. Now we raised I think nearly 2 Bitcoin at this point, which is awesome, and it just keeps growing, and we are just able to help more and more people. And that’s what open source is about: building projects, helping people, making people smile, being happy about it. It’s just a good example of how you can even work in a non-profit way in an open source as well. And just kickstart the initiative. This is the freedom that I was referring to. I was just sitting one day, I talked to Enrique about El Salvador and we were like, Okay, what can we do to help? I think that’s a very important question that we always should ask: what can we do to help? And then we just simply started the project in a few weeks. It was already bringing in Bitcoin, and we were able to bypass all of the paperwork and everything. Everything was built on top of Bitcoin. And we were directly able to find both the clinic and patients, and everything was so fast. Once you throw out these legacy things like banking and paperwork and regulations, it just works perfect. And yeah, we are helping more and more patients, and thanks to all of the companies and all of the people that are supporting us so far

R0ckstar Dev:

Yeah. I must jump in here because when I think about Bitcoin Smiles, I get so excited. It’s an application of everything that we are talking about here. And when I think about how many things needed to come together in order for this to happen—I mean, you have my nephew Jack flying to El Salvador and bringing the whole country in focus when it comes to Bitcoin and Bitcoiners. And then you have Pavlenex being inspired and connected with dentists in El Salvador. And then the two of them just start this brainstorming and suddenly there are people getting dentures for free. And then people all over the world donating their Bitcoin over BTCPay Server instance, open source being used. I mean, it’s phenomenal. I don’t think we can do it justice here explaining it on this podcast, but yeah, definitely visit bitcoinsmiles.org and see the videos because—then people jump in and do videos and video editing. But one thing I must say to people: if you try this similar thing and you don’t get the success that this project did, don’t get discouraged. There was so much in the background of this project that’s not obvious. And seasoned veteran project manager Pavlenex leading it—it can’t fail. But again, I would say use this as an inspiration, but don’t try to replicate its success because again, there were so many things in the background that we can’t even get to here.

Stephan Livera:

Of course, yeah. So that’s the other part. So as we were talking about ch roles changing, when you’re involved in an open source project, when you’re thinking about time to transition, how do you think about what to do when it to leave that open source project? What does that look like?

Pavlenex:

Yeah. I will start with R0ckstar’s quote: he tells me every meeting, I will retire and watch you guys from the mountain as a good old wise man, but maybe I butchered his quote. I think it’s a very important question to ask, and we are somewhat at this stage where we decide like, Is it really—and I’m also again, quoting R0ckstar—but once you see that you are taking more than you are giving to an open source project, that is probably a good indicator that you may want to retire on the mountain and get involved in something else. Because, to me, open source is always about giving, giving, giving, and when taking starts taking over, it’s probably a good idea that you should look and transition to something else. And it’s good that there are so many open source projects, especially in the Bitcoin space, that you can get involved and transition to. Simply find something that you can—my skills maybe now can be used better on some other projects, so maybe I should focus there and help those people grow, and that project go grow. Whereas on BTCPay Server, I will be fully happy if any of the core members can be easily replaced, and none of us are a central point of failure for the project. That would be ideal, like having people constantly coming in and going, and helping the project grow while they grow themselves. That’s the ideal situation. But yeah, if people are now connecting the dots and talking about BTCPay Server that R0ckstar and Pavlenex are retiring, and Nicolas—I don’t know—we aren’t. We are just thinking philosophically here, when is it the right time to say, Okay, I’ve done enough here. Maybe there is something better that I can do. And maybe there are so many projects that I can contribute and help to. But I’m sure R0ckstar will have a way better way of forming all my thoughts, which were random.

R0ckstar Dev:

Philosophical explanations, yeah. Definitely. There are all the different types of retirement, because for me, when I talk about my solitude temple on top of the hill that people make a track to visit—yeah, that’s a really deep retirement. And then it’s kind of already happened, because I created this channel where I just have a group of people, and then I sit there, and if they have any questions, I answer. If no one contacts me, I’m just a wise man sitting in silence. But to apply it more to—not a single point of failure, because I also don’t want Nicolas to have a heart attack if he’s listening to this podcast and he’s like both Pavlenex and R0ckstar are retiring from the BTCPay Server project—it’s about not getting stuck. Because you contribute to open source not just for the project, but you contribute to it more for yourself—you’re developing yourself. And if you get to the point where you don’t feel you are developing more, but rather, Okay, it’s now a repeated type of contribution, and you don’t find as much of development in it, then maybe yeah it’s time to start growing new armor. And part of that can be within the same open source project, or it can be another project. It can be a paid position in a company based on your open source portfolio. So I would more focus on that, because—this is also something that me and Pavlenex always talk about when you say, Okay, not a single point of failure, but do you really want to make BTCPay Server without Nicolas? It’s kind of good that he is a single point of failure. And I always say BTCPay Server will live forever because Nicolas will always run it on his own server, and he’s going to keep improving it for all the other people in the world. And I love that. So if Nicolas fails and BTCPay Server fails, it’s a point for improvement. It won’t, because I as a General, First Lieutenant, I will always step in to help Nicolas. So it about that balance. And as I say: for you personally, it’s just (1), you don’t feel that you’re stuck. You keep growing the armor. And then (2), not taking more than you are giving, because it blocks others from contribution. And for me, the beautiful thing about us cypherpunks as well is you can have separate identities for contributing to separate open source projects. You don’t need to be always like R0ckstar or Pavlenex. And in that sense, as I said, for me, it’s easy to quit projects because I just let identity die. And I have this scheduled thing with the R0ckstar identity dying. And then only people that I leave contact with will be able to follow me to the new identity. I must say, for the R0ckstar identity dying, I just want to make sure to reserve Livera—you sing beautifully. So when it’s Rockstar’s time to die—there is a funeral on Twitter—Livera, I expect you to sing at the funeral. Can we get a commitment for this?

Stephan Livera:

Of course, of course. I’m happy to. It’s a shame to see your R0ckstar identity is going to be dying, and I’m sure many listeners will be very upset to hear that news. But of course, I can’t say no. I will obviously be present or attending and singing at the online funeral event. So when are you thinking this is going to be?

R0ckstar Dev:

Oh, well I have a date, but let’s announce it separately, because R0ckstar caught COVID and couldn’t find a place in the ICU and—we’ll invent the story, that’s attractive.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. And for anyone thinking out there, let’s say they’re part of an open source project and they are thinking, Okay, we have some single points of failure. How should they be thinking about that? Obviously the idea is to try to remove that, but what does it take to actually remove single points of failure in our projects?

Pavlenex:

Well, in open source, it’s all about meritocracy. You earn these virtual merits as you contribute. They can be even GitHub commits, but not everything is on GitHub. Not every contribution is visible there. But yeah, if the community is based on a meritocracy principle, I think it is very easy not to have single point of failures, because people come and go, certain contributors—it’s a cycle. One year, I contribute more. The other, I contribute less. The year when my contributions are at low levels, it is very easy for somebody else to have a vote to take over my tasks. And it is a natural, organic process that we manage to implement in BTCPay Server. We don’t question the decisions of people who are core contributors. That’s how you become a core contributor. You don’t become a core contributor if you’re famous on Twitter—no, you become a contributor just by contributing on a regular basis. And we call those contributors rock star contributors. And that’s how we have that many people in our team doing awesome things. And yeah, I just don’t want the retirement thing, for people to get it wrong, because I think retirement can also be looked at in a way overall changing as R0ckstar maybe earlier mentioned. So one person changing, going into more of a mentorship and on boarding people versus coding is also one good example of how one may retire. It’s not always quitting the open source project. It’s just shifting your roles to something that will allow other people to take over certain tasks, and you will do something else. That’s like a cycle that we’ve been talking throughout the podcast. I just wanted to make sure that it’s not [interpreted] like we are retiring, BTCPay Server is retiring. No no, BTCPay Server is stronger than ever, guys. We are getting back with a new release, so many more features, and you’ll blown away very soon when we launch.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. And I think actually while we’re here, it would be good just to—if you’re could, just for listeners who are interested, can you give us any updates on what’s coming with BTCPay Server. Pavlenex, you want to go?

Pavlenex:

Yeah. Since I’m the manager, or the janitor, I will talk about it. We have two very big releases coming. First one is 1.4. This is where BTCPay Server UI will completely change. We are having a different navigation. We’ve done like so much on the design side of things, and improving the UX. Big shout-out to @dstrukt__ and @_d11n_, who’ve been doing an amazing job, and figuring out how users interact with BTCPay Server and how we can improve it. We’ve done so many tiny changes that you guys will be blown away by how easy it is now to use BTCPay Server. And the good thing is that we will constantly improve it. So it is never done. And 0.5 will introduce dashboard and reporting. So there are many surprises. And I think two weeks from this recording we will release. And I just want to invite people to provide feedback to us because all of our decisions in BTCPay Server are made because of the people who are using BTCPay Server and telling us with what they are stuck with, what do they find problematic. And that feedback and talking to us in our chat is also very important. So yeah, wwesome things coming to BTCPay Server. It will be awesome, I promise. So many new features that are coming in.

Stephan Livera:

And R0ckstar, anything to add there, or anything that you are excited about?

R0ckstar Dev:

I fully embrace my wise man on the mountain role. So I would encourage listeners to go to another link, and that BTCPay Server’s GitHub repository—https://github.com/btcpayserver/btcpayserver. Because it’s an open source project and an open organization that Pavlenex really has set up in a great way. You have this project board where you can exactly see what the project is focusing on in the next six months, even 12 months, that can tell how great of a PM Pavlenex is. But then you can see, Okay, this is where I can find my own space. This is where they’re growing armor for me, and you can join and contribute. So I encourage people to visit that link, the GitHub project repository for BTCPay Server, and see it on that project board. But going back to what we were talking about with single points of failure and BTCPay Server being stronger than ever. It’s because it built that network of teammates and smaller teams within the project that now I would say you’ve done it in a way that if something happens to Nicolas, God forbid—but that can’t happen, this is the emperor of Bitcoin—there will be people that take it forward. Like Pavlenex mentioned @dstrukt__ and @_d11n_, they’re now a small team that is working and churning out these features. And it’s because of them that BTCPay Server looks better and better with every new release. And I would say this is more something that we should inspire people who already have open source projects to do, to open space for new contributors so that you don’t get into a situation where the project has grown beyond the point where it’s even good for your mental health. I think about what happened with that Node.js library, like faker.js, where there was a single contributor. He just couldn’t handle all the pressure, so he deleted the repository. It was an open source library that was used all over the world, and they even banned him from GitHub. The guy was asking for help, and that’s part of open source that it’s hard to talk about that, as I say, everyone is like, Oh, I’m going to showcase. I’m going to build for my portfolio and people will appreciate it. And sometimes, no—sometimes people will not appreciate it. It doesn’t matter how impactful your code is, but that’s why you always should keep in back of your mind, you are doing this for the community, but you are also doing it for yourself. And if the signal is, Hey, there is no funding, don’t delete your contributions and say, Okay, now everyone give me back my code. It’s like, Okay, you just need to grow in a different way. An if you are the main contributor of an open source project, see it as an opportunity to grow, or maybe you need to transition to something else.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. I think those are very wise words, and probably a good spot to finish up here. So hopefully that has given listeners a taste of what it’s like in the open source world and maybe working in Bitcoin companies as well a little bit. And so where can listeners find you guys online? And of course I’ll put these links in the show notes.

Pavlenex:

Yeah. I’m @Pavlenex on Twitter, BTCPayServer.org, bitcoin.design, and Bitcoinsmiles.org. And also if I can recommend one book that will probably help people understand open source and how it is to work in open source, it’s called Working In Public: The Making and Maintenance of Open Source Software, by Nadia Eghbal from GitHub. It’s an awesome book that also pinpoints both good things and also bad ones.

R0ckstar Dev:

You don’t need to find me—my tweets will find you. That’s how it goes.

Stephan Livera:

And keep an eye out for the details around the funeral, I’m sure.

R0ckstar Dev:

Yeah. Plus that, the funeral will find you, especially when Livera’s angelic voice—I mean, it’ll just build up the legend of R0ckstar Developer even further. But yeah, my transition from R0ckstar Developer on Twitter, that’s impacting my profile and follower count. I need to go back to R0ckstar Developer. People would find me on Google. But now it’s Uncle R0ckstar. The handle @r0ckstardev is still the same with a zero. So you can find me there, and then you can find me in upcoming Bitcoin conferences here in the US. I’m going to release a calendar because more and more people DM me like, Hey, will you be here? Will you be there? So I think UUnconfiscatable is the next big conference I’ll be at. So find me at those places.

Stephan Livera:

Fantastic. Well, thank you both for joining me today.

R0ckstar Dev:

Thanks for the invitation and support of us and BTCPay Server, Livera.

Pavlenex:

Yeah. Thanks so much, Stephan, it’s been a great journey, and thanks for being with BTCPay Server all these years.