SLP539 Living in Dubai and Bitcoin Oasis with Lara Eggiman

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Have you heard about Dubai but been wondering about what it’s like there? Lara Eggiman joins me to talk about Dubai, the UAE and the new bitcoin-only conference launching here, Bitcoin Oasis. We discuss:

  • Dubai lifestyle
  • Common misconceptions
  • Tips for people who want to set up in Dubai
  • Why the UAE is well placed for Bitcoin adoption
  • Bitcoin Oasis
  • Bitcoin Association 

Links:

Sponsors:

Stephan Livera links:

Podcast Transcript:

Stephan (00:01.233)

Lara, welcome to the show.

Lara (00:03.254)

Hi, Stephan, thank you so much for having me.

Stephan (00:06.621)

So today we’re gonna be talking about Dubai, the UAE, and of course, Bitcoin Oasis. So let’s start straight into it. So I think a lot of people who are outside of Dubai, they have this preconception. And so what we see is maybe the Westerners are looking at Dubai and they have this preconception. What do you think those preconceptions are? And what do you think they’re getting wrong about Dubai?

Lara (00:34.619)

First of all, Stephan, let me start with like, I’m a huge fan of your content and thank you so much for having me in your podcast. I’ve already learned so much from you and yeah.

Stephan (00:41.905)

Thank you.

Lara (00:44.79)

Very amazed that I’m now joining today. You’re also a very active member of the Dubai community yourself, and you’re doing a lot of on the ground, so I’m very happy to have you around as well in Dubai. So yeah, maybe about me quickly. I’m a pleb from Switzerland originally, and I moved to Dubai three winters ago. So I can’t take like winters. So yeah, I mean, there’s a lot of misconceptions about Dubai in general.

that I, especially here in Switzerland and in Europe, you really feel like yeah, there’s a lot of misconceptions about what the UAE is, what Dubai is and like

Stephan (01:26.941)

So if you brought it up to, let’s say you brought it up to one of your friends in Switzerland, what would they say typically?

Lara (01:32.686)

I mean, usually they say there’s not really a lot of freedom in the UAE. They ask me about how it is to be treated as a woman there as well. Also if you do business in Dubai, how is it to do business in Dubai? Also there’s prejudices against Islam. Also safety. So, is it safe to be there? It’s just crazy because it’s so opposite from my experience really.

I really fell in love with the Arab culture, I fell in love with the Muslim culture and with the country itself. I think it’s probably one of the best-run countries in the world and one of the best places to live, at least for me and for many others as well. It’s very diverse, so you have like 88% expats there. It’s just so much diversity, it’s very cosmopolitan, and it’s just at the core of their culture.

It’s really like the hospitality and the generosity and they’re very tolerant people as well. It’s really, it’s a very nice place to live and especially as a woman I feel like you get treated very well. You’re like at the top of the family hierarchy. Men are very caring and providing. It’s probably a bit more of a traditional approach but it just resonates with me and especially

Lara (03:03.1)

you really get a lot of support and doors are opening for you. So yeah, I think it’s much, much easier to do business in UAE than back home in Switzerland.

Stephan (03:15.049)

Right. And when it comes to, let’s say, amenities, convenience, services, quality of life, what’s your perception of that in Dubai?

Lara (03:27.015)

I think you really have a very, very good life in Dubai. I mean, you don’t pay income taxes, there’s no capital gains taxes.

all of these things. The weather is just amazing. You have like 10 days of rain, but apart from that it’s just always sunny. I mean in summer it’s getting very hot, but in winter you really have amazing weather and then it’s just super safe. So it’s like the second safest country on earth. And so, I mean that’s kind of a fun fact, the two safest countries.

worldwide our Middle Eastern countries and Arab countries. So it’s Qatar and then UAE.

Stephan (04:03.045)

Right. Yeah, these are common misconceptions, right? Because a lot of people have this conception of Western cities. And to some extent, people are realizing this now, they’re starting to see, they’re hearing examples of what’s going on in San Francisco, these crazy, you know, these crazy examples.

Whereas if you look objectively at what are some of the countries with very low crime rates or some of the cities with very low crime rates, it’s places like Qatar, the UAE, I think Taiwan and in Venice. I think Switzerland is very high up in the safety rankings also. But I think a lot of people have this weird conception where they just think, oh, I’ve grown up here in the West and it’s just safer here and better here on every on every metric and every way. When that’s if you look objectively at the actual statistics, it’s it actually doesn’t line up.

Lara (04:31.875)

Mm-hmm.

Lara (04:38.094)

Mm-hmm.

Stephan (04:51.95)

with reality.

Lara (04:53.602)

That’s so true, yeah. I mean, in Switzerland, I would not leave my bicycle unlocked, but in the UAE, I just leave it anywhere, and I know I’m going to find it again. And there’s a saying that if you leave your wallet somewhere and you lost it, basically, you will find more money in it when you have it again. So, no, it’s really a very safe place, and yeah, also for families.

Stephan (05:13.478)

Right, yeah. Yeah, you hear these stories of people who, or it’s even more of a common practice where there are people who when they go to a cafe and they’ve got their laptop there, they might actually leave it there while they go to the washroom and just come back. Whereas maybe in other countries, you wouldn’t dare do that, leave your laptop there and your wallet there and things like that. I think it’s an interesting distinction there that…

Lara (05:27.33)

down.

Stephan (05:40.057)

people maybe are not familiar with. I think what we are seeing in some of the ways is people are sort of lamenting the loss of high trust sort of conformity, let’s say, in societies. And so…

they are saying, they are seeing, maybe that’s part of why they’re saying, look, the crime rates have gone up. I think maybe part of it is also just poverty rates as well. But yeah, so I think that’s one aspect of it. I think in terms of Dubai and the UAE in general, I think people talk about other issues, like whether it’s worker treatment, that kind of thing. Do you have anything to add on that?

Lara (06:25.054)

I mean, maybe also freedom of speech is something that’s often getting criticized. I myself feel much freer to speak my mind here and then in other places it’s just much less woke, let’s say. And yeah, it’s really, the tolerance and openness is really high.

And yeah, with regards to the working class, I mean, the people who are coming to Dubai, they really, they have a much safer life here than they have back home. And when you ask them, they’re very happy that they have the opportunity to come to Dubai, work here. And yeah, overall, they improved their lives, they improved the situation and the situation of their families back home. So, yeah.

I think it’s really a free market approach. Whoever has work and is contributing to society is very welcome in this country.

Stephan (07:26.489)

Right, and what you’ll find is that many people are…

coming from countries like India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, let’s say the Philippines, African countries, as well as the Western countries, of course, and they are generally earning more than they would back home. And that’s why they’re doing it, obviously, because that’s what makes sense for them to do. And so, you know, there are trade-offs with everything. Nothing’s perfect, but fundamentally, are they earning more and perhaps living in a safer way

than they might be back in their countries back home. Oftentimes the answer is yes. The other aspect I think, and I mean, there’s different things you have to think about depending on where you wanna live and what you wanna do. Obviously, we’re living in the desert here, right? So there’s an aspect of you have to be okay with that aspect of it. And it’s sort of driving around a little bit more, but.

Lara (08:16.674)

Hehehe

Stephan (08:24.569)

What I’ve found is that the highways and the, you know, things move pretty quickly. Obviously there are some times where there’s a little bit of traffic and congestion, but overall it’s pretty good. Especially, I would say, especially if you can work from home, then maybe that’s a better setup. If you can do that, or if you have like an office that’s near you instead of sort of going, traveling long ways. But also I would say there’s a lot of convenience factors here in terms of.

delivery and services and things like this where they will come to your home and do that service. That kind of service is not really available in many other cities, whereas I think in Dubai there are a lot of those services.

Lara (09:08.418)

That’s really so super convenient. You really have a lot of services in Dubai. I really enjoy that. And yeah, it makes a lot to your living in Dubai that you get a lot of cheap and good services as well. Yes, and also with the traffic that you mentioned, I think like when you compare it to other cities with a similar amount of people, they’re really doing a very good job with really planning the city out and having…

Having a good vision of where they want to go and I think they’re handling traffic very well actually.

Stephan (09:45.145)

Right, and they are trying to grow the city. So I think last I looked up the number, I think Dubai’s population is somewhere around 3.5, 3.6 million. The overall UAE is about 10 million. And I know the interesting stat, as you mentioned, is a high percentage of the people living here in Dubai are expats. It’s like almost 90%. And so it’s actually a relatively small proportion of local.

Emirati people. And so it’s an interesting dynamic also from the perspective of, because there’s so many expats, I would say it’s almost easier to make friends and to meet people as well. Like if you’re trying to connect with people, you’ll find that there’s a lot of people who are coming through Dubai, or maybe there’s a lot of businessmen and business people in Dubai. And so there’s a certain different…

social dynamic that you’ll notice there as well, whereas things that you might notice from some of the other western countries that have a more established city or you know towns and things like this you’ll find

maybe the social dynamic is actually a little different, where maybe there’s more like social groups, and unless you went to school with them, or you went to university with them, or you worked with them, you sort of might feel a bit more shut out. Whereas one thing I’ve noticed is actually because of the high proportion of expats, people are relatively open to actually meeting and making new friends and things like this. So that’s another thing that I’ve noticed here in the UAE.

Lara (11:14.15)

I would definitely agree on that. Everybody is almost in the same situation like you, newly arrived or maybe here for a couple of years. And I also find it very easy to make new friends. Also, there’s a Bitcoin community as well. So this is really, really fun just to hang out with the Bitcoiners in town. And as you know, we often organize brunches and dinners, and we have the meet-ups and so forth. So it’s really a lively Bitcoin community as well.

and you find good friends there as well.

Stephan (11:47.961)

Right, and there’s all kinds of different meetup groups and things. So let’s talk a little bit then about Bitcoin in the UAE, Bitcoin in the Middle East. There’s been a lot of different articles of news relating to this, but do you want to just spell out a few of your own thoughts? What does it look like here? What are the prospects for Bitcoin in this region?

Lara (12:10.548)

I mean Dubai so far or the Emirates so far, they’re really the crypto capital.

So there’s a lot of not really focused on Bitcoin. So yeah, that’s really what we are here for to make the stance that Bitcoin is actually much, much more aligned with the core principles of the country. And I really think that the transformation to a Bitcoin standard, it will happen somewhere in the Muslim world. And I also think that UAE could very well be at the forefront of this transformation, really, to global Bitcoin standards.

I see three main arguments why the UAE aligns very well with the overall principles of Bitcoin. So there’s like the economic perspective obviously. So it’s basically a city of, or the UAE is really like a city of sovereign individuals, let’s say. Let me restate that. So

There’s like the economic perspective. So Dubai… How should I… Let me just think of a moment how I would want to put it.

Stephan (13:26.202)

Sure, sure.

Okay, so let’s put it this way. So, let’s put it this way. What factors do you think Dubai and the UAE have that make it well placed to be a Bitcoin hub?

Lara (13:42.454)

Mm-hmm.

Lara (13:48.562)

Yes, so what the UAE really understands is that you have to treat your citizens like customers. It’s like the sovereign individual thesis at play and they really understand that, yeah, you have to treat your citizens well and you, yeah, you have to make yourself attractive for them to come. So they really understand that very well. So it’s very business friendly. They have their low tax regime.

They really focus on creating economic opportunities here. So, yeah, from an economic…

Stephan (14:22.893)

Yeah, on the taxes, I think it’d be good to spell some of those out. So, so as we said, it’s no personal income tax, but there is a 9% corporate tax. Uh, that’s, uh, that is in place. There is a 5% VAT. So when you buy things in the shops and things like that, like a sales tax, many countries have that. Um,

There’s no capital gains tax. I think that’s also an important one for at the individual level, which is obviously if you’re a Bitcoin hodler and you want to stack stats and having no capital gains tax is also really handy means less accounting and record keeping requirements. And in terms of, as you said, trying to be competitive, I think that’s an aspect where the UAE and Dubai that there are various.

free zones and places that people can go to set up their business. So there’s different entry paths in. So some people go to, let’s say a free zone and they set up a company and off of that company, they then get a visa from that. So typically they’re paying like a yearly fee to have that company set up. So it’s kind of like pay to play system. So I think it’s.

Fair to say that, you know, sometimes people confuse it with like a zero tax, when really that’s it’s not the case. It’s more like a low tax regime, right? There’s a 9% corporate tax and you’re paying an upfront fee or every year you’re paying, for example, for that free zone company. Uh, and, um, you know, there are certain, let’s say state owned

Enterprises as well. So for example the telecommunications here do and etty salada the two main ones and their state-owned and also So some of the electricity as well. So that’s over here. It’s like D war and another one I think it’s called empower so some of the kind of taxes are sort of built into that you’re paying at that level but Kind of net the way I see it is net Depending on how much you earn and how you structure things

Stephan (16:25.063)

a tax perspective because you might be effectively paying way less tax here in Dubai or in the UAE compared to let’s say some of the high tax Western nations. So do you have anything you want to add there in terms of how you see that?

Lara (16:41.214)

Right, I mean they really want to be attractive to people. They make it very easy for you to come over to get a visa. And they really apply free market principles basically. That’s why they are successful. They focus their economy on diversification. So they really understand that you have to diversify your economy. It’s not that they just rely on oil actually. The oil revenues in Dubai is only like 5% or something. So yeah.

That’s um

Stephan (17:09.989)

Right, yeah, that’s coming back to the common Western preconception of Dubai just being all about oil money when in reality it’s more like financial services, tourism, real estate. And so I think that’s probably the more accurate perception of what’s actually going on here, at least in Dubai. I know Abu Dhabi does have more oil. And so that’s a little bit of a different dynamic there.

Lara (17:16.556)

Yeah.

Lara (17:21.495)

real estate.

Stephan (17:37.765)

So anything else on why Dubai and the UAE in terms of strategy and why Bitcoin adoption here?

Lara (17:49.01)

Yeah, there’s many more arguments. I mean, there’s also a huge remittance market. So from 600 billion worldwide of remittance money, 150 billions are from the GCC area, and UAE being the leader.

Stephan (18:03.581)

So GCC, just for people who aren’t familiar, I think it’s a golf corporation. Let me just check the acronym.

Lara (18:07.41)

the countries.

Stephan (18:11.565)

Right, yeah, and so this includes Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE, just for people who aren’t familiar with what GCC is.

Lara (18:19.152)

right and yeah the Emirates being the biggest remittance market out of the GCC as well so yeah we definitely have potential huge demand for Bitcoin here

And then there’s the whole social perspective in all Muslim countries, I would say. So in my perspective, Bitcoin is much better aligned with the core values of the nation than the altcoins, let’s call them. So, I mean, I’m not an expert on Islamic finance, but many Islamic scholars, they agree that Bitcoin is halal and it is not a debt-based money and you don’t take rebar, you don’t take interest.

Lara (19:01.904)

as well. And Bitcoin itself is characterized by a more conservative safety first philosophy really. So it is like digital gold and they understand gold. It’s just better. So yeah, I think to put it from that perspective, it’s really much easier to talk about Bitcoin here than in other countries.

Lara (19:31.684)

It just makes it easier for them to understand Bitcoin and not have these prejudices.

Stephan (19:40.353)

Yeah. And in the region, there are, there is Bitcoin mining already. So just, you know, next door in Oman, there’s a, you know, there’s, there’s a Bitcoin mining going on right here in the UAE. There is Bitcoin mining happening and Marathon have a project in Abu Dhabi where they’re doing Bitcoin mining. There was recently, I believe a publicly listed in the UAE Bitcoin mine, I believe they’re called Phoenix. And so there are.

Lara (20:07.873)

Right.

Stephan (20:09.477)

Bitcoin mining projects going on here. And so that’s also another interesting aspect given the power here because there is nuclear power here in the UAE. And I mean, there’s a range of power, but they have some nuclear reactors here as well. And so that’s obviously a good source of relatively low cost energy, which obviously Bitcoin miners are interested in.

Lara (20:33.898)

It’s growing very fast, the mining field here in the UAE. As you said, there’s really mining with different energy sources as well. You have nuclear mining, you have fler gas, but you also have solar. So yeah, a lot of different energy sources as well that can be capitalized on. So it’s very interesting what’s going on here.

Stephan (20:55.629)

Yeah. And so when it comes to the question of top down versus bottom up adoption, how are you seeing that here when it comes to Dubai and the UAE?

Lara (21:07.227)

Yeah, so I think here we really have a much better, better… Sorry, let me put that again. Like, so I think from that perspective…

Lara (21:30.21)

The UAE is very well situated as a monarchy, right? So we don’t have a democracy here. And in the monarchy, you really can have impact. So you can really talk to those people, and they have a vision. They really have a vision for the country. They want to lead it. And I think from that perspective, you can really have an impact here. And I also think that they…

They’re much better situated here to really get Bitcoin because, I mean…

they see the devastating impact the fiat system really has and what horrible cost it has imposed on the world, really. I mean, since World War II, the US government has bombed like 52 countries worldwide. It’s just an infinite war that’s fought out and it’s just terrible. And I think the Middle Eastern countries have probably suffered the most under the fiat standard, really.

And yeah, I mean, they’ve lost so many brothers and sisters and for what really? So yeah, I think from that perspective, people really have the chance to better understand the devastating consequences of the fiat system.

Yeah, I think things can go very, very fast in the UAE. So as I said, it’s a monarchy, which I personally prefer over democracy because you, yeah, I mean, just compare the outcomes. They really have a vision and they want to lead the country to a better future. They want to, they think much more long term. They’re not voted for four years and then they’re gone again. They really have a long term perspective. And yeah.

Lara (23:22.88)

you can really get to the government, get to the decision makers here and have an impact. And if you sit down with them and just tell them focusing on Bitcoin has a lot of benefits for you, I mean, it could really suck up a lot of liquidity from everywhere and the capital inflow, the talent inflow, it would be very interesting to geopolitically position yourself in this spot, right?

lead that transformation into a Bitcoin standard. So I think it’s worthwhile trying to approach it also from a top-down approach. I mean, it’s always both, right? It needs both. It needs bottom-up and top-down, but…

I mean, just give the people the choice. Now they don’t have a choice. So if you would say you accept Bitcoin and you accept fiat money, you at least have a choice. So it’s more of a free market approach. That’s why I’m not against the top down approach. And you’ve seen, for example, like in El Salvador, what was happening there. I mean, since they are on a Bitcoin standard there, they improved their situation a lot. They’re much more safe. They increased their tourism rates over 30 percent.

They have a lot of capital inflow, talent inflow, so they’re doing very well. I mean, UAE is already in a very different spot. They’re much more advanced already. So yeah, for JIN, it would be very interesting to consider a Bitcoin standard, really.

Stephan (24:58.905)

Right, and on the tourism question as well, Dubai is, from last I checked, it is literally the number one in terms of international arrivals in the world.

Lara (25:11.743)

Mmm.

Stephan (25:12.173)

So the number one overall, interestingly, is Atlanta, by the way, but that’s counting domestic. So if you’re just counting international arrivals only, Dubai is literally the number one in the world. And so there’s already a lot of tourism here. So that’s all that’s often an interesting factor. And as you know, when we have sometimes, you know, interesting people are flying through Dubai, and sometimes we grab them and say, hey, come and do a lunch with us or something while you’re while they’re in town. So that’s something available also. So let’s talk a little bit now

So I know this is coming up in February next year. What’s Bitcoin Oasis?

Lara (25:48.33)

So yes, Bitcoin Oasis will be the first event that is hosted by the Bitcoin Association UAE. So we’re also launching an association here to really advocate for Bitcoin and drive Bitcoin adoption. So Bitcoin Oasis will be the first event. In February, it’s going to be the first Bitcoin-only convention in Dubai. And yeah, I’m doing it together with my amazing business partner, Lena. She’s a Bitcoin artist. And yeah, some may know her for her shoes.

Air Force ones and yeah she’s the creative mind behind the whole thing. She’s doing the design, marketing, that stuff and she will give the event like the extra touch so we’re a good team and yeah we’re focusing the conference mainly on Bitcoin businesses so we really want to bring Bitcoin businesses to Dubai, show them the opportunities they have in the Emirates, in the GCC area as well and we want to connect them with investors,

high net worth individuals, family officers and government representatives as well. So we really want to get the right people to the table. And it’s a three-day event. So first day is a full conference day and then the second day we’re going to do on a yacht. So it’s really something special that wasn’t done before. We really will have like a conference day on the yacht and this will be

Then, like the third day, we’re going to add a community day, which will be open to everyone, so you can just sign up. As all the Bitcoiners that are coming to the conference are already in town, we want to let them to meet with the broader Bitcoin community as well. So I’m also looking forward to have this community day where you can just sign up too.

Stephan (27:38.865)

Great. And in terms of speakers, we’ve already got a bunch there. I’m checking on the site. We’ve got Adam Back, CEO of Blockstream, Jimmy Song, Irina Hever, a lawyer here, Jacoma Zuko, Danny Scott, CEO from Coin Corner. And yeah, tell us a little bit about what people can expect in terms of material that people are going to be presenting and talking about at the conference.

Lara (28:03.994)

So we have three main focuses. So first of all, we want to make the stance that Bitcoin is not crypto. So really touching the fundamentals of why Bitcoin. That’s mainly important for the investors and these people that we want to bring to the conference, also the government and so forth. So we really want to make that point. And then we’re going to touch into mining and energy. That will be one of our main topics, as this is really

a growing topic in the UAE. And then finance and investment will also be one of the main topics we’re going to cover, so Islamic finance and these kind of things.

Stephan (28:44.697)

Right. And in terms of the investing, let’s say, class of people, whether these are people who are running a fund or maybe they’re with a family office, I know that, you know, because UAE had a lot of quote unquote crypto stuff in the last, you know, in the recent years, maybe having people to having a venue and a conference that will focus back towards

Bitcoin might be a useful thing for people because I know that there’s probably some high net worth investors, family officers and things who got wrecked on some of the altcoins or some of the likes of FTX, BlockFi, Celsius, etc.

And so focusing back on what it is that you can huddle and that you can huddle your own keys and not get rugged. I think these are important lessons and a focus that’s there. So hopefully that’s also a message that we can help promote. I should mention just for listeners, I’m also gonna be at the event as well. Obviously I live in Dubai, so I’ll be here. I’ll probably end up being an MC or a speaker or something, but we’ll figure that out. So in terms of…

venues. Do you have anything else you can explain for all listeners at this point? Or I understand there was maybe some moving around of moving parts there.

Lara (30:05.538)

I’m not sure if I can… we don’t have a contract yet for the first day but it’s going to be in the IFC. The second day is on the yacht in Marina. We will start there and the third day, community day, we’re looking for a beach location as well.

Stephan (30:24.049)

Fantastic. Okay. Well, yes, so the website’s bitcoin-oasis.com. Is there anything else you want to mention for listeners while we’re here before we finish up?

Lara (30:25.207)

So.

Lara (30:33.546)

Yeah, maybe just about the Bitcoin Association that we’re launching. It’s really, yeah, we want to advocate for Bitcoin and drive Bitcoin adoption. And yeah, we want to be the leading voice for Bitcoin here and really, really drive the ecosystem. So whenever you have any inquiries or you want to build in UAE, just come to us and we will support you with your endeavors. Yes, that’s maybe what I want to add there.

Stephan (31:02.449)

Great. Okay. So the dates are February 8th, 9th and 10th for the after event, the community event. So that’s 2024. Website is bitcoin-oasis.com. Obviously, I’m going to be here. I’m looking forward to seeing anyone here who’s looking to attend the conference. And Lara, thanks for joining me.

Lara (31:20.514)

Thank you so much, Stephan.

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