Mike Peterson from Bitcoin Beach El Zonte, El Salvador, rejoins me on the show to give listeners some updates from El Salvador. Having a reduced crime rate and improved investment and tourism into the country has driven big changes! We talk:
- How things look a few years on from the Bitcoin Law
- Life on the ground in El Salvador
- How easy it is to move
- El Salvador $1M Citizenship Program
- Dealing with on chain fees
- Custodial vs Self Custodial and pragmatism
- ‘Circular Economies’ and insights from his networking around the world
Links:
Sponsors:
- Swan.com (code LIVERA)
- CoinKite.com (code LIVERA)
- Mempool.space
Stephan Livera links:
- Follow me on X: @stephanlivera
- Subscribe to the podcast
- Subscribe to Substack
Podcast Transcript:
Stephan (00:00.438)
Hey Mike, welcome back to the show.
Mike Peterson (00:02.777)
Hey, it’s good to be here.
Stephan (00:04.758)
So lots of things going on. I wanted to get you back on to give listeners an update on what’s going on in El Salvador, in the world of Bitcoin and Bitcoin circular economies. As I know, you’re a big passionate advocate and supporter of. So I guess one place that might be interesting to start is just sort of El Salvador now, what was it? Early August or September of 2021, if I’m remembering correctly, that the legal tender law
came in. So as we speak now, it’s end of January 2024. It’s kind of a little under two and a half years on. I’m curious if you sort of zoom out, how would you view things, let’s say two and a half years on from that?
Mike Peterson (00:51.369)
I think we’re way ahead of schedule for where I thought we’d be at this point. I actually thought that the initial rollout would be much more of a disaster. Just any time you try something new and do something big like that. But it actually worked. I mean, obviously the Chivo wallet had all kinds of issues. But the fact they actually released it to me was a surprise. I was expecting it to not even work. So I think that.
Mike Peterson (01:24.285)
Sorry, Stephan.
Stephan (01:24.298)
Yeah, from an overall perspective, would you say, like economic development wise, that the country has gained from this?
Mike Peterson (01:33.937)
Yeah, can- sorry. Can you- it sounds like real echoey on my end. Is it okay on your end? I don’t know- Okay, I’m sorry. I should have just kept going.
Stephan (01:42.164)
I can’t hear any echo now.
Stephan (01:47.326)
All good, no worries, we’ll cut this out. So anyway, as you said, so as you said, it happened a lot faster than you thought it would. What about from an economic perspective, the country in general? As I understand, there’s been a big wave of tourism and maybe El Salvador got to ride a little bit of the COVID, the COVID tyranny drove a lot of people out of their own home countries, whether that’s Canadians or otherwise. And many of them came to El Salvador, a lot of, you know,
Mike Peterson (01:49.327)
Okay.
Stephan (02:17.642)
Relative speaking. So I’m curious, any thoughts on that as we speak now in 2024?
Mike Peterson (02:24.905)
I think people underestimate the second-order and third-order impacts of the Bitcoin adoption and how much that’s really changed El Salvador. And, yeah, definitely with COVID and countries doing crazy things around the world, that spurred expats to look for new homes. And so we’ve seen an influx of people really from around the world, which is invigorating the country. But I think what is really the…
biggest impact to Bitcoin to date has just been how it’s changed the narrative around El Salvador. It went from being known for gang violence and murder to really a country that’s the leading edge of financial innovation. All these news articles, even the hit pieces that were done that get way off base, they still have pictures of the beautiful beaches here. And they have all the…
show the amazing people of El Salvador. And so I think it’s really helped to drive tourism. Even the articles that were trying to be negative about El Salvador are making it into a must see place. And so we’ve seen this huge influx. And I think the other thing people underestimate is it really gave the president a national stage.
Prior to that, nobody really cared about what was happening in El Salvador. Nobody would have cared about the gang crackdown and all this stuff if he hadn’t done the Bitcoin adoption first. That’s what kind of set him up as a world leader of importance. And so that’s why they’re so eager to criticize him now. But people just have to come and see for themselves. I mean, the results are self-apparent. The country is thriving. The economy is booming. The biggest…
Complain I hear from local business owners is they can’t get enough employees. And so it’s that’s just a remarkable change I mean, I’ve been in a software for 20 years so nobody would have thought that ever would have been a possibility that people would be complaining about not being able to find enough employees and so Those things while maybe not directly Bitcoin related it’s not you know, not necessarily because the business is accepting Bitcoin that they’re a
Mike Peterson (04:38.009)
you know, sales are up 100 percent. Maybe the Bitcoin aspect is only 10 or 20 percent, but it’s the whole package. It’s what’s transformed the country. And a lot of people are visiting in El Salvador, moved to El Salvador because of Bitcoin, and they don’t even know it.
Stephan (04:52.138)
Yeah, that’s a really great way to put it because there’s certainly with this, there’s always two sides to any story. And of course the negative people will say, Oh, look, there’s actually not that many people using Bitcoin or the other negative narrative might be like, Oh, look, all these Salvadoran people, they just got given an airdrop of $30 on the national wallet on Chivo. They just immediately withdrew it. And now they don’t use Bitcoin. And it’s just seen as like, Oh, Bitcoin is just like this tourist money. We don’t really use that thing. But at the same time, like you’ve just said, there’s actually this other narrative of
it has helped spur a whole new round of people to either invest in the country, to come live in the country, to even just be curious and check it out from a tourism perspective. And even small changes kind of at the global level can make a big difference to a small country like El Salvador with a population of what, six, six and a half million. It can really move the needle. And so I think that’s certainly a really interesting thing. And I definitely see…
narrative or at least not just a narrative but a reality around financial services. Now as you pointed out, financial innovation in El Salvador is something I know the Bitfinex guys are partnering very much with El Salvador to try and help create this new financial platform. And I think that’s also really interesting because maybe to some extent they, you know, people trying to do financial innovation might look at other markets and say, oh look there’s so much regulation or it’s just
But hey, there’s this sort of fertile ground here. I’m curious what you’re seeing from the financial innovation side.
Mike Peterson (06:30.637)
I think people are going to be shocked five years from now on how much the country’s transformed and how it becomes a hub of finance. Like you mentioned, the fact that Bitfinex and Tether are this interested in this country that quite frankly most of them probably didn’t even know where it was on a map three years ago and now they’re looking to make it one of their major hubs. That shows just how much Bucelli’s moved the needle with this decision. And so…
I go back to what I was saying earlier, all of the publicity, all of the positive and negative publicity of El Salvador, without the Bitcoin adoption, most of it wouldn’t exist. Most people wouldn’t care about all the moves, the gang crackdown, all that stuff, if it wasn’t the fact that they had kind of thumbed their nose at the US government and said, hey, we’re going to adopt Bitcoin as legal tender. And so…
That is what has made El Salvador the place that people want to be and kind of a power player for such a small country.
Stephan (07:34.322)
Yeah. Uh, and one point that was made to me even on my visit, uh, one of my visits, uh, to us, and this was actually not recent. This is November, 2022. Um, I was talking to, uh, one of the guys there and he was saying that the
way you see the country is even different. And this is the context or the way he meant it. He would say that it used to be like really boarded up, like in terms of how the shops were and things were now you’re seeing shops with like glass windows and it’s just kind of a much different environment. And that was even, you know, November 2022. I’m sure now it’s even more progressed than that.
Mike Peterson (08:14.569)
I mean, beyond just boarding up, the businesses used to actually kind of try to remain anonymous or secret. And so I remember when I first moved to the country, it was extremely hard to find where even to buy things because nobody would put their sign out front. A lot of the businesses would be in gated communities that you had to like talk your way past the guard to even get in. And I thought, well, this is insane. Why would you set up a business in place that was so hard to get to?
But the reason was that they were trying to avoid the gang members and the extortionists. And so it was this kind of cat and mouse game of you wanted your customers to know where you were, but you didn’t want the gang members to come and tax you. And so now that’s totally transformed. You see these beautiful billboards going up everywhere. You see businesses, like you said, with big glass windows, no bars. It’s…
It is shocking. Like if somebody left the country five years ago and came back today, they would think they were in a different place.
Stephan (09:11.506)
Yeah, I think the other angle and maybe some Bitcoiners have this, let’s say, criticism. They have this criticism of, oh, it’s so top down because it was like a top down legal tender law as opposed to a bottom up. I’m curious what your perspective is there and how you would sort of answer that in terms of bottom up versus top down.
Mike Peterson (09:32.573)
Well, I think the reality is it was both. I mean, really, it started with Bitcoin Beach and our activities started a year, I think it was maybe 18 months before the government made it at legal tender. And so it was a grassroots effort with really the poorest in the community, the ones that were using Bitcoin. And so I think if you look now, even most of the stores that are accepting Bitcoin, they tend to be…
either the real big stores or the mom and pop stores that can’t accept credit cards that see the advantage of using Bitcoin. And so I do think it’s coming from both directions. And ironically, it really is the wealthy in El Salvador that are the most anti-Bitcoin. They’re kind of the old guard. They see it challenging the bank monopoly they have, the remittance monopoly, and also they just tend to be the ones that are anti-Bucheli. And so…
It’s interesting, it’s definitely not like something of the wealthy and the elite. It’s something of the middle classes and even the very much working class.
Stephan (10:38.27)
Interesting. And so what about in terms of people coming into set up in El Salvador? Right. Like I’ve heard, and maybe this is outdated info, I don’t know now, people saying sometimes it can be difficult to deal with banks locally because maybe AML laws and things like that. But or like dealing with other bureaucratic elements of getting set up, has there been much progress on that front? Is it still, you know, fairly?
reasonable as a process to go in if someone wants to go and set up there to either get a residence permit or to set up a business.
Mike Peterson (11:13.157)
I think it’s really two different stories. One, if you’re talking about just the government requirements permits and that, they’re actually very responsive and very easy to work with. You know, there’s still going to be red tape. You can’t get around that. But I’ve been surprised when I go back to California and try to do something there, I’m like, oh my gosh, it’s so much easier in El Salvador. And so they’ve made huge strides on that front. The banks are still horrific. Like I always tell people.
You need to find a workaround. And I think those are coming. I think there’s actually Bitcoin companies that are setting up systems so that people don’t need to use the local banks here and still can connect to the broader financial system. But yeah, the banks are horrific. And I think it’s for two reasons. One, a lot of them see Bitcoin as competition, and so they don’t necessarily want to make life easier for Bitcoin-related companies.
The other is just this real fear of the US government and being cut off the Swift system. And so I’ve been told, and I don’t know this for a fact, but I’ve been told that none of the banks in El Salvador will let you receive a wire from any Bitcoin or crypto exchange directly, that they will just deny that wire. And so even the companies here that are operating, they have to set up a separate company that doesn’t have Bitcoin in its name in the US and then send, you know, if they…
If they need to send anything from an exchange, they send it directly to kind of the shell company and then send it down. So I’m not going to sugarcoat it. There’s still a lot of problems with the banking system. And I think the government is aware of this. And you know, the banks are privately owned, so there’s only so much they can do. But I think they are pushing on their end. And I would guess in a year or two from now.
a couple of the banks will realize what an opportunity there is here and they’ll step in and the rest will follow.
Stephan (13:09.662)
Yeah. And as I understand, it’s relatively cheap to, if you are planning to go to El Salvador as an individual, it’s relatively cheap to, in terms of cost, to get a residence permit, right?
Mike Peterson (13:23.165)
Yeah, the actual, if you want to do the normal residence permit process, I think the official fees are a couple hundred dollars, you know, if you want to hire a lawyer and have them handle the paperwork for you, which I would advise, it just makes life easier. You know, obviously it depends on how much you value your own time, but yeah, it’s still going to be, you know, a couple thousand dollars most to get your residency. You know, that’s obviously different than the million dollar passport, you know, immediate plan that you can go.
Stephan (13:52.214)
Right, yeah. Actually, let’s talk a bit about that, as you mentioned, the $1 million citizenship and passport, let’s say, fast track program. I forgot the official name of the program, but as I understand it, it’s basically, you can either pay $1 million worth in Bitcoin or $1 million worth in USDT, ta-da. And I’m curious if you have any thoughts or any kind of reactions on that. One angle I was seeing is that…
People were saying, well, hang on, is the price a little bit high for where El Salvador is today? Do you have any reactions on that?
Mike Peterson (14:27.677)
So I actually had that same reaction at first. I was thinking, whoa, that seems a little steep. But the more I think about it and the more I see where El Salvador is heading, I think for them this is also a filtering mechanism. I think they want people who are not just shopping around for the cheapest jurisdiction, but they actually want people that want to be involved with the Salvadoran economy and are excited about what’s going on there.
And so I think by putting the price tag up a little bit higher, they’re able to do that. And I actually know a couple people that are going through the process right now, and it is amazingly streamlined and fast. I mean, I think they finished everything in two weeks. So that compared to the other programs, you know, and St. Kitts or the other ones I’ve heard about are usually, you know, six to 12 months and multiple meetings and.
So I think they’ve really tried to make this a special VIP experience for people who want to see El Salvador succeed and aren’t necessarily looking at this as a cost but a chance to invest in El Salvador.
Stephan (15:39.234)
Right, I see. Because, yeah, as you said, I mean, there are some much cheaper programs out there. Some of the Caribbean ones might be something in the range of 150,000. Let’s say Turkey, with Turkey, you can buy a property for 400,000 and pick up a passport off of that. So El Salvador coming in at one million, I think for a lot of people was like, whoa, you know, as like a donation, it’s not like just an investment aspect. You’re just giving that to the government. But at the same time,
I also appreciate that I think you might be looking at El Salvador as, hey, this is a good passport to sort of get now because you believe it’s on the up, right? And I truly, I believe that. I believe that El Salvador as a country is on the up. So while I personally think one million is probably still a bit high for now, I think it’s probably not crazy to think that in five to 10 years time that it would be sort of at that level.
if a lot of other things come to play there. And if Bitcoin price runs up a lot over the next five to 10 years, then maybe there are a lot more people who become interested as well. So, yeah, go on.
Mike Peterson (16:50.469)
I think the fact that they make it so streamlined and easy and quick for a lot of people that have significant means, that’s more important than the price tag. It’s the experience, how’s the government going to actually treat them during the process? Also, that includes their whole family. So, you know, a lot of these places, you have to pay additional fees for family members. And so this includes your kids also and your spouse.
Stephan (17:00.321)
Yeah.
Stephan (17:07.244)
Right.
Stephan (17:15.042)
Gotcha. Well, hey, if you’ve got a big family, then you can divide it. You’re amortizing the cost to cost more people. So in terms of, I guess the other, I’m curious this angle as well. So now that let’s say the covid tyranny stuff is sort of has subsided, at least for now, I mean, until the next current thing, whatever. I’m curious if you’ve seen, let’s say, like whether ex-pats who came to El Salvador and now they’re going back,
Mike Peterson (17:21.021)
Definitely.
Stephan (17:44.982)
there’s a bunch of people who came to El Salvador and now they’re actually choosing to stay in El Salvador.
Mike Peterson (17:50.217)
I’d say the majority are choosing to stay, and we’re still seeing the COVID exodus. For a lot of people, it’s a big decision to leave your home country, and just the logistics of it, of having to sell your home, business, kind of tie up things with your children’s schooling, all those type of things take time. And so we’re still seeing that inflow of people that made that decision a couple years ago. There are gonna be the occasional.
family or individuals that come down and realize, hey, it’s a little more challenging in this area than I anticipated. It’s still a developing country and so there’s still some of the things if you’re used to living in the US or Canada, sometimes things might seem a little rougher here. I mean, that’s changing rapidly, but there are some people that expect it to be kind of overnight to have all of the same services and luxuries that they’re used to in New York City.
a place like that. And so I think that, and for some people too, they just realize they miss family members at home and there’s a lot of variables that go into deciding where you’re going to live. And I’m sure if you have experienced that of leaving your home country and living as an expat somewhere else, even if you love the country, sometimes there’s things you miss about home.
Stephan (19:09.438)
Yeah, I think you’re right. But you know, at the same toke by the same token, though, there’s also the angle and I’m sure you see this too is reverse culture shock sort of there’s this angle of you think going back, quote unquote, to what you thought was once home. And actually, it’s changed, you know, the past is a foreign country in some in certain ways that maybe things have changed, you might be a Canadian or American who left because of all the covert hysteria, the socialism, the work ism, whatever, and sort of.
the place that you really fell in love with or that you really loved being in has changed and it’s not what you once thought it was. So, you know, maybe that’s also worth thinking about. With El Salvador though, I guess one of the big hurdles I suppose would just be, well, you probably need to learn Spanish as well, right? Like it’s not as much of an English speaking culture, right?
Mike Peterson (20:04.201)
It really depends where you’re going to be. So in Elzante and Bitcoin Beach, there’s a ton of English being spoke, a lot of it due to the efforts of Hope House and the programs that we’ve had here for English classes. So there’s a surprising amount of English. So there are lots of people that don’t speak any Spanish that get by fine and are able to enjoy life there. Also pockets of the capital city. I always advise people if you really want to get…
you know, everything out of a country, it’s going to be much more enjoyable if you speak at least some Spanish. But the great thing here is people are super friendly and they love if you just make an effort. So it’s not like, you know, some places you go and you try to speak the language and they like roll their eyes and like, here they’re excited if you’re trying. So it’s a great place to learn.
Stephan (20:46.163)
Like France or something.
Stephan (20:53.014)
That’s great. And then from a obviously Bitcoin audience, we’ll probably want to know things like how easy is it to actually live on Bitcoin there, right? Because, you know, we might’ve all heard stories where, okay, there’s like a town or an area or some merchants where they, you know, they say they’re going to take Bitcoin, but actually nobody goes there and spends Bitcoin. So eventually the payment terminal is not being used or it’s only the boss who knows how to use the Bitcoin thing and the other normal employees don’t. And, you know, can you give listeners a sense of
actually spending Bitcoin, how easy is it to sort of live your day-to-day life on Bitcoin?
Mike Peterson (21:28.861)
So that also depends somewhat on where you choose to live. Obviously, if you’re in El Zante, it’s no problem. The majority of the businesses accept Bitcoin. Also Berlin, which is kind of an up and coming Bitcoin hub in the coffee country. But even in the capital city, like the main supermarket accepts Bitcoin. The Price Mart, which is their version of the American Costco, accepts Bitcoin. The hardware stores all accept Bitcoin. So if you’ve been to the US, you’ve
You might not be able to go to any shop and spend Bitcoin, but it’s very easy. If you only want to live on Bitcoin, it will be pretty easy to do so. You’ll have less choices on where you’re going to shop and what things you’re going to do, but it’s no problem at all to live on Bitcoin. We’re seeing that it kind of comes in waves, to be honest. Initially there was a big release. There was confusion about whether it was going to be enforced by the government for everybody to accept Bitcoin. You saw a number of people take it.
And, but a lot of them didn’t have the right setups and they became frustrated. And so you saw a decreasing number of stores, accepting Bitcoin. I think it was more of a logistical thing for them. And now I feel like we’re starting to see an upswing again. There’s so many great companies out there with very user-friendly platforms. They’re innovating, they’re making things actually better for the businesses. It’s easier for them to accept Bitcoin than credit cards. And so…
I think especially in this next price cycle, we’re going to see another surge in the number of businesses that are accepting. I would say almost all the big stores take Bitcoin. A lot of the medium size don’t, but a number of the small ones do. So it’s kind of bifurcated in that way. And it’s still challenging. I think there’s only one new car dealer that accepts Bitcoin. We bought a couple.
trucks for the project from one of the dealers that did. We want to support those companies that are accepting Bitcoin. There’s also some challenges with real estate purchases. If the individual you’re buying from doesn’t want to accept Bitcoin, but there are intermediaries now that have stepped in that are providing that kind of liquidity service for Bitcoiners that want to come in and pay for Bitcoin, but the locals want to receive dollars in their bank accounts. So it’s…
Mike Peterson (23:49.462)
I won’t say it’s seamless and I won’t say everywhere except Bitcoin, but you can definitely live on a Bitcoin standard here better than you could anywhere else in the world.
Stephan (23:58.646)
Right. And as you mentioned, intermediaries, I presume then, let’s say, I’m just trying to think through a case as an example. So let’s say somebody is earning Bitcoin online, they can sort of earn their salary in Bitcoin. Are there local OTC or cash people who will help that person sell their Bitcoin and get local fiat cash to be able to spend at places that don’t take Bitcoin? Is that a reasonable access? Is that reasonably accessible?
Mike Peterson (24:27.689)
So you have the Chivo ATMs, which are all over the country, which have their downsides. I’m not gonna lie, there’s been a lot of people who’ve had issues, who haven’t got paid. Eventually they work it out, but it becomes a big headache with customer service. So there’s a long way that needs to go with that. And especially if you try to do bigger amounts, it becomes more problematic. Athena also has a couple of the ATMs that they run under their own brand that now,
have implemented Lightning, and those work really well. The fees, I think, are 7% or something like that, five or 7%, where the Chivo fees are zero. So some people will still choose to use the Athena one just for the ease of use, and they don’t wanna deal with Chivo. Also, Blink recently has rolled out a OTC option where people can cash out of the Blink wallet and at different physical locations. That’s…
pretty new and so I’m not sure how many locations they have up and running so far. But what we’ve found is the more cash in, cash out options, the less likely people are to cash out. There’s a sense they feel like if at any time they can go to dollars, then they decide, nah, I’d rather hold it in Bitcoin. And so a lot of the maxis get upset like, oh, there shouldn’t be ATMs, there shouldn’t be ways for them to cash out. But…
I would push back on that. I think when people don’t have that option, then they don’t value Bitcoin as much. But once they realize, wow, this is money that at any time I can magically turn into fiat or I can spend, it makes them more likely to want to hold it than dollars.
Stephan (26:09.458)
Right. And I think that’s also a pragmatism thing because there are very few people on earth who can literally do everything in Bitcoin. Right. And so at some point, you’re often having to deal with fiat, either electronic fiat or deal with physical cash to be able to pay your rent or whatever it is for the, you know, those people who are still living in the fiat legacy world. Of course, we all, we all obviously would love to live in the hyper Bitcoinized future.
you know, pushing towards that as much as we can, but I think there’s also a point of pragmatism and recognizing where we are today. You mentioned some of the wallets as well. So I’m curious, what do you normally see people using? Is it mainly Blink, Chivo, other, you know, other Lightning apps?
Mike Peterson (26:53.821)
So it really depends whether they’re nationals or tourists and from where they’re from. Most people in Elzante use the Blink Wallet and a lot of the other smaller communities. Also most foreign tourists will use that. Blink doesn’t allow North Americans and so they’ll have to find another option. They used to use Wallet of Satoshi, now that’s not an option for Americans either.
So I’m not sure with Aqua’s a new wallet that recently came out, and I’m not sure if they geofence theirs or not. I was able to download it here. So I’m not sure if I was in the US if I would have had issues with that, but it’s another kind of promising wallet that people use. The Chivo wallet, when it works, the system works well for people. They could integrate with the banking system, they can move back and forth.
kind of frictionlessly, but I’ve just seen so many problems of people getting their accounts frozen. I’ve had to go with people and spend hours in the chief of the office because they want to know why they were receiving $600 in Bitcoin a month from somebody. And so they’ve really made it unusable. And it’s a shame. It could have been a decent product, but it almost feels like they’re trying to destroy it.
Stephan (28:17.558)
That’s a shame. Yeah, I presume that’s some kind of AML restriction on their bank side. I mean, I don’t know. I’m speculating. Also, from a Bitcoin perspective, I’m sure there must be a very thriving meetup scene and Bitcoin events and things. So can you just outline that for listeners who are not in El Salvador and haven’t been?
Mike Peterson (28:37.841)
Yeah, so we have a meetup in Elzante once a month. It’s the, I think it’s the last Friday of the month, if I’m remembering right. And then also, I know Meepremier Bitcoin hosts meetups, I think once or twice a month. There’s also the Bitcoin Farmer’s Market that’s in Elzante every other Sunday. And there’s now a number of events in Berlin, which is kind of the new hub that I mentioned earlier. And so,
You know, there’s really always some type of meetup or some get together going on. We also just have like a every Friday, a Bitcoin dinner will designate a place in El Zante for Bitcoiners just to be able to come and meet up. And it’s more of a chance if they’re new to be able to start making some connections and kind of go from there. But it’s, I always joke that it’s living in El Salvador is like being in a nonstop Bitcoin conference. Like you just see Bitcoiners that you know from Twitter, you know.
You’ll just be walking down the street, you’re like, wait, I think I know him. You know, it’s like, and you’re, maybe you’ve never met in person before, but you know, you greet on the street, and it’s like, you know, you’re long lost brothers or sisters, so it’s a lot of fun being here.
Stephan (29:50.338)
That’s cool. So yeah, as I’m reading you there, it sounds like there’s a few hubs, right? Obviously, Elzante is a big hub there. I know San Salvador, the main capital, obviously has a lot of Bitcoin people who are around there, and you mentioning Berlin as well. So it seems like that’s a big new hub. I have seen some social media posts from people in Berlin also. So do you wanna just tell us a little bit about the Berlin side of it? Like what’s going on there and how that got started?
Mike Peterson (30:19.761)
Yeah, so the Berlin initiative was started by a Salvadoran couple that had worked with me, Premier Bitcoin, previously. And they just really felt like they wanted to dig deeper in a location and see a circular Bitcoin economy kind of rise up in a real grassroots and authentic way.
And I think they just kind of liked Berlin. The weather is beautiful there. It’s kind of mild year round. Unlike the beach, you don’t need air conditioning. You also don’t need heat. It’s kind of that perfect high plains, high mountain, you know, mountain weather that here is, you know, maybe gets to a low of 50 at the, you know, at the coldest in Fahrenheit and then maybe a high of 85. So it’s kind of in that band all the time. So perfect. So…
Stephan (31:06.914)
Pretty temperate, yeah.
Mike Peterson (31:10.161)
They saw this vision of basically replicating what had happened in El Zante. It’s been amazing to see how quickly they’ve been able to do it. That has drawn in a number of expat Bitcoiners. I think for expats, a lot of them, it is the perfect landing spot. It’s a lot cheaper than being at the beach. El Zante is not particularly cheap. It’s a beautiful destination that a lot of people want to be in, and there’s high demand.
rents and to buy homes is fairly expensive in Elzante. And a lot of Bitcoiners are not in that stage where they’ve accumulated that capital. And so they’re starting out and they want a place where it’s not gonna be a stretch for them. Also, as I mentioned, the weather is amazing. I think the weather is much better than it is in Elzante. I mean, I love being at the beach because I like to surf and that, but weather-wise, I think that Berlin has it made. And it’s also kind of a medium-sized city. So there’s people that…
They don’t want to be in a huge city, but they also want to have, you know, grocery store that’s open, you know, after five o’clock in the, in the evening and be able to resource most of the things that they need. And so I think it kind of hits all those things for expats and it’s very affordable. And so I think we’ll see that continue to grow as a hub.
Stephan (32:27.218)
Yeah, that’s cool. And it’s great to see that there’s lots of different options there. So talking about circular economies just in general, I know this is something you’re very passionate about. Can you give us a little bit of an overview on where your thoughts are with circular economies nowadays, you know, after your years of experience sort of being part of and helping host and grow them?
Mike Peterson (32:51.561)
So I think it’s important to realize circular economies are, it’s not like a one and done. It’s something that’s going to grow over time. And so at the initial phase, it needs a lot of almost artificial injection of Bitcoin. It needs people kind of pushing in there to get the ball rolling and that momentum started. But I think it’s also important to do that in a balanced way that you don’t overpower that and it become.
something that’s not sustainable. And so I think it’s great to have people come in initially, make sure they’re injecting Bitcoin in the community and then be willing to step back and let time play out. It’s not gonna happen overnight, but I think over a five to 10 year period that starts to naturally grow as people, initially they’re skeptical of Bitcoin, then they see maybe there’s a price run and so they get kind of interested.
Maybe they buy at the top and then they feel like they got rug pulled. But then as they continue to follow it, they start to realize, okay, it’s not about price appreciation in fiat terms. It’s about money that I’m sovereign over that I can control. Um, and that for the first time allows me to have a stable store value, but also something that’s very spendable and easy to use and, you know, there is no PayPal and, uh, or Venmo or.
those apps here in El Salvador. So just the fact that they can use this permissionless app that any of somebody, their relatives in the US can send to them, they can send across the country. They start to realize all the broad benefits of Bitcoin. And so that usually takes several years to play out. And we were seeing that in El Zante, we had the initial wave, there was a lot of injection, we had a lot of programs that we were doing.
specifically around COVID and people weren’t able to work. And so we were doing a lot of humanitarian work. And then as we’ve pulled back from those injections, it can look at first like Bitcoin adoption slowing down, but it’s just kind of resetting and starting to take its natural place. And then we’ll start to grow from kind of a more natural means, not something. You can’t prop up something forever. And so our goal is, and even the other economies we work with is say, hey,
Mike Peterson (35:10.961)
Go in there, get it started, get the people curious, plant the seeds, and then let Bitcoin do its thing.
Stephan (35:17.418)
Yeah, so I guess the analogy is sort of like when you’re learning to ride the bike, you got the training wheels and then after a while you got to take the training wheels off and learn to ride without the training wheels. So I’m curious then when you proverbially take the training wheels off, where does the organic growth come from? Is it mainly from tourists or is it actually from locals who are getting jobs, remote jobs? Like, where does the, how does it stay sustainable?
Mike Peterson (35:47.837)
So you need to have some sense of outside source of Bitcoin coming in, because they need somewhere to get Bitcoin from. And so I do think tourism, for some communities, is a great way to do that. For other ones, it’s them realizing they can work for an American company, a European company and earn wages that are three to four times what the local wages are and receive that payment in Bitcoin. And so I think those are both. I think it’s going to be a multitude of ways that Bitcoin comes in.
it starts to reach a point where people tell their bosses, hey, I would prefer to be paid in Bitcoin. It just makes it easier. Can you pay me in Bitcoin? And so that’s when you see it really start to take deep root is when the locals want to be paid in Bitcoin, when the stores instead of coming to you to ask if you can buy their Bitcoin, come to you and say, hey, do you have any Bitcoin you can sell me? And we’re seeing that. It’s not an overnight process, but just like…
I know for myself, my Bitcoin journey was many years before I feel like I really had a decent understanding of Bitcoin. And we shouldn’t expect that that’s going to be different for people just because Bitcoin is legal tender in the place.
Stephan (37:03.41)
Yeah, and I mean, it’s a combination of things, right? It’s economic knowledge, it’s technical knowledge, and then maybe an even deeper aspect of just, are you emotionally or mentally, psychologically comfortable with huddling? Because as anyone who’s been a long time Bitcoiner knows, we go through these big cycles up and down, and oftentimes it’s an 80% drawdown at the end of a cycle. That can be very psychologically tough to endure, and sometimes you need to have gone through one or even multiple cycles before you really
start to feel comfortable just huddling and being a Bitcoiner. I am curious as well any learnings you’ve had, because I know you also, not just in Bitcoin Beach and Berlin in El Salvador, but also you actually network a lot with circular economies around the world. So I’m curious if you have any insights to share there, like how have circular economies in other parts of the world gone?
I know many of them have tried to copy the Bitcoin Beach model as well.
Mike Peterson (38:04.637)
Yeah, that’s actually where I spend the majority of my time now is working with these other projects around the world. And I love seeing this kind of network grow, decentralized. Nobody’s in charge. It’s just all of us helping each other. I learn tons of stuff from the other economies out there. The one thing I’ll say was universal is there’s, we get a lot of people say, hey, I want to start this project in such and such place.
And the first thing they always ask is, okay, well, are you already working there? Do you have relationships there? Do you have local connections? Because starting a circular economy is not something you can come in and do as an outsider. It really has to be rooted in the community and something they desire and something they want to see happen. And so the best projects are actually ones that already existed that weren’t using Bitcoin prior. And Bitcoin Acasio is one example of that.
That was something with the surfer kids initiative they had there that Arman had been doing for 10 years prior to injecting Bitcoin into it. And that gave him just the trust of the community and the ability to come in and really impact their hearts and minds. And so that’s what we always tell people is, you know, do it in the place that you’re from or that you’re already invested in don’t
come in and think you can just airdrop into a place for three months and evangelize Bitcoin and then take off. It’s gonna be a waste of your time and your resources. And quite frankly, a lot of times that does damage in the community because people feel like you were just a scammer. So we tell people, you know, make sure, start slow, go slow, but plan on this being, you know, a five, 10 year project, not something that you’re gonna do in a few months.
Stephan (39:55.122)
Yeah, now one other thing I’ve heard, even when I visited Boracay in the Philippines, my understanding there is, I’m not insulting the pouch guys or anything like this, but my understanding is sort of that they almost, they onboarded so many merchants, but there was like not enough people spending. And so it sort of, it was a bit off kilter, it was out of whack a little bit. So then what we saw or what I heard is that there was sort of…
too many merchants, not enough spenders, and then some of those merchants sort of stopped taking Bitcoin because there was nobody coming in and spending there. So I think that sort of goes to the point you were making about slow and steady adoption such that it’s not too watered down, right? Like if there’s not enough spenders in that local community to sort of keep it running, maybe if you have too many merchants, it’s not going to be a good fit. And so that’s sort of like a sustainable pace.
Mike Peterson (40:53.713)
I think that’s always a challenge that you face with anything that requires network effect is, you know, how do you drive that and what ratio should that be? And I don’t think there’s a right or wrong way. I think there are advantages to onboarding a lot of merchants. We saw that was kind of the logo Bitcoin in Guatemala. They kind of went more that model. And I think just…
people seeing all the Bitcoin signs in all the stores and, you know, seeing that something happen that drives curiosity and I think can sometimes drive people towards Bitcoin adoption. But I’ve definitely seen the other side of that. If stores, you know, only get somebody using Bitcoin every three months, by the time they get somebody who wants to spend Bitcoin, they don’t know where their device is, they forget how to do it. And so it is a danger of onboarding too many. And we’ve tried to…
especially in the early stages, we tried to have that balance of making sure there were enough spenders per store that opened. Obviously now with El Salvador adopting Bitcoin as legal tender and the numbers of stores and businesses accepting it are in thousands and I think it’s less of an issue. But when you’re just starting out, and I know that’s something Arman and I have talked a lot about in Bitcoin Acasio is he’s been very careful.
to make sure that as he’s onboarding stores that they’re gonna have enough customers to make it worth their while. And the biggest challenge is, quite honestly, is getting Bitcoiners to spend their Bitcoin. I think there’s this misguided, hodl attitude. Don’t get me wrong, I’m saving in Bitcoin, that’s where I’m storing any family wealth that I have, but it also is great money to spend. It just makes life so much easier, and if you believe in it, you’d wanna see it spread. You’d want…
Stephan (42:20.716)
Yeah.
Mike Peterson (42:44.209)
people to be able to share this thing that you’ve discovered. I think it’s kind of selfish when Bitcoiners don’t spend their Bitcoin. You can always buy more. There’s exchanges, there’s ability to get more. I know there’s tax implications and other things, but I think we need to look at the bigger picture and be willing to practice what we preach.
Stephan (43:04.094)
Yeah, I understand that. I now I personally do earn and spend Bitcoin myself, but I also understand for many people, particularly in the Western context, where maybe there’s a capital gains implication or maybe from their perspective, they’re like, look, I already have access to US dollar bank accounts, credit cards, debit cards, whatever. And for them, they would rather just tap their credit card, tap the debit card and deal with it that way. Yeah, it’s kind of a tough sell in that audience.
But at the same time, the more hodlers, yeah, go on.
Mike Peterson (43:37.166)
I think we’ve seen and Peter McCormick has touched on this. Like you actually, when you start to spend your Sats, especially in a place like Elzante, you realize it’s just so much easier. You don’t have to worry about conversion fees on your credit cards. And a lot of places don’t even accept credit cards. So he was mentioning before when we were talking about, he didn’t have to go to the ATM. He didn’t have to worry about anything. He just gets off the plane and here, and he’s got his lightning wallet and go. And so.
I think as the user experience continues to improve, I think we’ll see more and more hodlers actually willing to get out there and spend their Bitcoin.
Stephan (44:14.206)
Yeah, right. And it’s also fair to say, and I believe this is historically true also, is that when we’ve seen these bull runs, you get this wealth effect, right? So people feel richer and they feel like, oh, hey, I should go, I should spend some. And I think this plays out even if you look at, let’s say, bit refill data that there’s more people spending during a bull run, that kind of thing as well. So it might also be a bit of a price narrative thing as well. Like if, let’s say we enter a new bull run, maybe we’ll see more people coming and spending at the circular economies. They might say, hey, let’s do a holiday, let’s pick…
circular economy to go do the holiday at so that might be an interesting angle. I think one other question and kind of related around the sort of watering down or let’s say spreading too thin. Do you see that could be a risk as well? Like if there’s so many like maybe in the days where let’s say Bitcoin Beach was the only circular economy or there’s that other one in the Netherlands. I think it’s Arnhem City. Anyway, the point is when there’s only one or two circular economies, it’s kind of there’s lots of people who are going to go there and spend there.
If there’s now lots of circular economies, do you think that sort of spreads it too thin in terms of not having enough spenders or how are you seeing that?
Mike Peterson (45:21.381)
No, I think it’s actually the opposite. I think that there is a network effect, even when it comes to circular Bitcoin economies, when people experience one and see how great it is, they wanna go visit others. And so I think that we’re gonna see this kind of cross pollination of people that only choose to vacation in Bitcoin circular economies that are looking to spend parts of the year in one place.
one circular economy when the weather is the best there and move to another when the weather is best there. I know there in Dubai a lot of people leave during the summer because the weather gets a little warm. And so I think we’ll see people, as people are more mobile and they can work remotely, they’ll choose to have maybe a cycle of Bitcoin circular economies that they live at during the year.
Stephan (46:13.758)
Yeah, that could be an interesting thing to see. One other question around fees as well. So it’s kind of like a lot of people are on about this topic. I’ve spoken a bit about it. Obviously, I think this Ordinal’s inscription stuff is basically spam. I’m not pro filter, though, mainly because I don’t think it would work. But I think it has changed a little bit of the conversation around self-custody, right? Because I think back when fees were
one sat per V by it, you could pretty much always say, hey, just everyone’s self custody, you know, no excuses. But now, when fees are sort of varying, and there are times when fees are high, that does end up pushing people at the lower socioeconomic status and people who are poorer, you know, maybe their net worth is not as high, their income is not as high, they can’t afford to do on-chain transactions. So it’s pushing custodial. I’m curious if you have anything, any insights or any reactions on what that’s doing.
in some of the circular economies you’re either in or talking to.
Mike Peterson (47:17.093)
I think the custodial, non-custodial conversation sometimes gets off course. I think we need to understand why do we want to be self-custodial? What is the importance of that? And realize, really it’s important for your savings and your wealth. That’s where you want to hold it in a self-custodied manner that nobody else can affect you. As far as spending goes, I prefer to use…
custodial options. The user experience is better. And if they rug me, they rug me. I don’t keep that much funds in there that it’s going to impact my life. I always tell people it’s just like, how much money would you carry in your physical wallet that you carry around with you? And so I don’t think it has to be one or the other. I think self custody, don’t get me wrong, it’s super important. And if we didn’t have that option, Bitcoin would cease to exist as it does now. It would lose its importance.
But I don’t think that means we can’t avail ourselves of custodial options when it makes life easier. And so I don’t think that that’s an issue for the people that the fees are a big impact. Of course, I would tell them use a custodial wallet when you have a large enough sum to move to self custody, do it at that time.
Stephan (48:34.442)
Yeah, I think that’s a fair perspective and it’s look, I think everybody recognizes that with Bitcoin as it is today without further technology or without other changes, it is going to necessitate a lot of people being custodial users. And hopefully, you know, there are maybe there are technological advances that enable more people to be self-custodial. But as you said, it is important to distinguish between savings and
smaller amounts that you keep in spending wallets and I think you know it’s a reasonable and pragmatic choice for people to have just a small spending amount in a custodial lightning wallet if they you know if they can’t afford to be self-custodial lightning users, so I think that’s fair enough. Any other things about circular economies that you think might surprise people that you know people who haven’t gone to one or maybe there’s like a conception people have in their mind of circular economies, but you think
There’s something a lot of people are missing there.
Mike Peterson (49:38.253)
Well, I think most Westerners really don’t understand how limited the options that the majority of the world have as far as their financial life. Things more or less work for us. The banks more or less work for us. We have all the different apps that we can use. That’s not the case for most of the world. For them, moving money sometimes is impossible.
even in best of circumstances, is expensive and time consuming. So Bitcoin really levels the playing field. And as it gets easier and easier to use, that’s going to have a big impact. That really was a competitive disadvantage for people in the developing world. And that’s been erased. And so I think people are going to be shocked to see the innovation and the…
the growth and quite frankly people being able, people always have this sense of, well, they need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. I agree, but before there was this external force that was holding them down. So I think now that that’s been lifted, we will see people in the developing world pulling themselves up by their bootstraps because they now have the tools and the hope to be able to do that.
Stephan (50:54.122)
Yeah, I think that’s a fair point to make. And in terms of being able to work online as well, I think that’s another big enabler, especially in a remote working world, or people who are entrepreneurial and business savvy can find ways to put up their digital shingle and sell products online, take payment in Bitcoin. So I think that’s really going to enable a lot of different changes. So…
I guess let’s talk a little bit about what you’re doing with your own podcast as well.
Mike Peterson (51:30.033)
Yeah, so, you know, of course, the last thing I thought the world needed was another Bitcoin podcast, but I just kept seeing the amazing people that were coming through El Zante, some well-known Bitcoiners, but others with doing great things that nobody knew about. And I would have these conversations every week and get to meet these people. And I felt like, man, it’s a shame that everybody can’t experience this. And so…
I was very reluctant. I didn’t really want to be a podcaster, but I just felt like, okay, we need to do this. The word needs to get out. And the reality is too, there’s a lot of people around the world that are interested in moving to El Salvador. And there’s a lot of bad information out there. So I wanted to make sure that we could, you know.
be the place where we speak openly and honest, we don’t sugarcoat things, but we also make sure they’re not buying the media narrative about where things were at. So that was where the idea for the podcast hatched. We do everything in studio in person, just because we have people coming through all the time. And so that was kind of by design. We wanted to make sure that we had people that were actually in El Salvador on the ground speaking about things.
In the future, we might branch out from that, but for now, that’s where it’s at. And it’s, yeah, just Bitcoin Beach podcast. You can look at it. We’re live from Bitcoin Beach and love for people to come and check it out.
Stephan (52:58.654)
Yeah, I encourage it. Guys, go and check it out. Yeah, Mike, anywhere else you want people to find you.
Mike Peterson (53:06.833)
Just follow us on Twitter at Bitcoin Beach. Yeah, I’m fairly active there. If you DM me and I don’t get back to you, DM me again. I tend to get a little scattered, so it’s not. Don’t be offended if I don’t get back to you the first time. But if you pester me, I’ll definitely get back to you.
Stephan (53:26.654)
All right, everyone’s got the green light to go and pester Mike. All right, Mike, well, thank you very much for sharing some of your insights around what’s going on. Sometimes it’s good to hear from people who are on the ground as opposed to just sort of random media narrative. So thank you for joining me and hope to chat soon.
Mike Peterson (53:30.941)
Exactly.
Mike Peterson (53:42.353)
Oh wait, Stephan, one more thing. I wanna make sure, so we’re having the world’s best having party here in El Salvador. So make sure you join us for that. I don’t know if you’re gonna make it, but it’s gonna be quite the event.
Stephan (53:48.167)
Ah yes, yeah.
Stephan (53:57.59)
Oh yeah, unfortunately I probably won’t be able to make it, but I wish you guys well and I hope to catch up with you sometime.
Thanks.