In this episode, Stephan Livera and Max K discuss the recent Baltic Honey Badger conference, highlighting the shift in focus from institutional adoption to innovative projects like Ark. They explore the workings of Debifi, a Bitcoin-backed lending platform, explaining its marketplace model, loan structures, and interest rates.
The discussion revolves around the evolving landscape of Bitcoin lending, focusing on the differences between custodial and non-custodial lending, the future growth of the market, and the implications for borrowers and lenders.
Max highlights the trade-offs between security and convenience, the increasing demand for non-custodial solutions, and the potential for lower interest rates as the market matures. The importance of understanding the risks involved in borrowing against Bitcoin and the need for responsible lending practice is emphasized as well.
Takeaways
🔸The Baltic Honey Badger conference shifted focus from institutional adoption to innovative projects.
🔸Ark was a significant revelation, showcasing seamless Lightning payments.
🔸Debifi operates as a marketplace connecting institutional lenders with Bitcoin borrowers.
🔸The platform uses multi-sig technology for secure Bitcoin-backed loans.
🔸Interest rates in Bitcoin lending average around 12%, with potential for lower rates as liquidity increases.
🔸Self-custody remains a challenge for many institutional lenders entering the Bitcoin space.
🔸Bitcoin-backed lending offers a unique opportunity for portfolio diversification.
🔸The market is gradually recognizing the value of Bitcoin as collateral for loans.
🔸Debifi aims to simplify the self-custody process for institutional lenders.
🔸The future of Bitcoin lending looks promising with increasing institutional interest. Many users prefer non-custodial lending for security reasons.
🔸The demand for Bitcoin-backed loans is expected to grow significantly.
🔸Borrowing against Bitcoin can help avoid capital gains taxes.
🔸Non-custodial lending offers more control over collateral management.
🔸Market predictions suggest lower interest rates in the future.
🔸The Bitcoin lending market is seen as a perfect storm for growth.
🔸Users are willing to pay more for non-custodial services.
🔸The importance of understanding LTV and liquidation processes is crucial.
🔸Multisig solutions can provide a seamless borrowing experience.
🔸The evolution of Bitcoin lending is driven by increasing market awareness.
Timestamps:
(00:00) – Intro
(00:55) – Key highlights of Baltic Honey Badger 2025
(04:51) – Ark & Layer 2 solutions; Impact on Bitcoin payments
(08:37) – What is Debifi?
(11:54) – Minimum loan thresholds and micro loans; Loan terms & duration
(14:43) – What are the interest rates?; Current Bitcoin lending market landscape
(18:05) – Sponsors
(19:52) – What is the value proposition of Bitcoin-backed lending?
(28:40) – The mental block for fiat investors; Self-custody of Bitcoin while lending
(33:42) – Custodial vs non-custodial models of Bitcoin lending
(43:54) – What are the use cases for the borrowers using Debifi?
(47:33) – LTVs & Liquidation percentages
(50:38) – Risk management with Debifi
(56:17) – What is the future of the Bitcoin lending market?
Links:
Sponsors:
- Bold Bitcoin
- CoinKite.com (code LIVERA)
Stephan Livera links:
- Follow me on X: @stephanlivera
- Subscribe to the podcast
- Subscribe to Substack
Transcript:
Stephan Livera (00:00)
Hi everyone and welcome back to Stefan Levera podcast brought to you by Bold. American listeners, you can buy Bitcoin over at Bold, Bitcoin for the best or lowest rates. And you can also get Sats back using the Bold debit card. Rejoining me on the show today is Max K. Max is the CEO and founder of DebitFi and he’s also involved with Baltic Honey Badger. Max, welcome back to the show.
dbf (00:23)
Thank you for having me. Pleasure to be back, Stefan. And I was happy actually to see you two weeks ago at the Baltic Honey Badgers. So it was a pleasure.
Stephan Livera (00:31)
Yeah, I mean,
we should chat about that. I mean, I thought it was a great experience, great chance to understand what’s going on, at least from my perspective, I like to sort of keep my ear to the ground to sort of understand what’s going on with different projects. ⁓ So there was a lot going on there. What were the highlights and big updates that you found at Baltic Hunting Badger this year 2025?
dbf (00:54)
⁓ Well, think that even all the conferences before the Baltic Honey Badger this year, most of them were talking about institutional adoption and Bitcoin treasury companies. we just know we at some point we just figure it out that maybe people are kind of tired of this topic. Everyone is talking about Bitcoin treasury companies, etc.
Nothing bad about that. I mean, I fully support the institutional adoption side. But I mean, we were thinking maybe people are a tired. We need to change ⁓ the topics and the agenda a bit. We had some content about Bitcoin Treasury companies, but we ended up actually talking on panels that wasn’t even about Treasury companies. Still, people were bringing that topic up.
And even Baltic Honey Badger, which is like OG, very cyber funkish type of conference. Even we cannot, we weren’t able to ignore that ⁓ thing about public companies adopting Bitcoin, even and also not public companies adopting Bitcoin as a treasury asset. I would say that was not a highlight, but definitely a topic that
we weren’t expecting that it will be so popular even among people that you think that they’re far from any type of institutional thing. But for me, one of the biggest revelations was ARK, which is a new thing ⁓ by ARK, obviously by ARK team. There are several teams that are working on this implementation because Honey Badger was…
always ⁓ sandbox for a lot of different initiatives. Like we were the first conference that ⁓ adopted the option to pay with this amazing cards, you know, just top, I don’t know whether you remember cards. So we were the first conference that actually tested out everything properly. And now like almost every big conference has this
Stephan Livera (02:56)
other bolt cards. Yeah, yeah.
dbf (03:07)
think you can just top up with the card and make a payment. That was really neat back, I think it was 2020 or 2023. And this year we were the first who actually did all our merchants were accepting Lightning payments through ARK. And it was so seamless. even I, yeah, even I…
Stephan Livera (03:29)
People didn’t even notice, right?
dbf (03:32)
didn’t realize this until the last day when in evening I went to buy some food for myself and then I realized, oh, okay, that’s actually ARK, you know, it’s working there. And I guess there will be a use case because the guys put a lot of efforts and I just want to say a huge shout out to everyone who was involved, especially Kukz who is like, force behind this stuff. So…
But yeah, that was the revelation for me. It’s very exciting and nothing crashed that was working seamlessly. So for me, from the perspective of the conference, ARK was the big revelation, honestly. It’s so promising and I’m very excited about that because it just opens a lot of different ways how you can finally, properly, as a builder, ⁓ as a developer, work with the lightning and they’re building a very amazing tool and hopefully…
everything that they declare will come true. I’m like fingers crossed.
Stephan Livera (04:34)
Yeah.
Yeah, this is really cool. Tiero and Cooks and the guys over at Arc Labs.
They’re doing something really interesting. So I’ll just quickly explain just for listeners make sure everyone’s following along. So you might be familiar with like buying, you know, you might have seen some videos of like whatever an influencer going and buying something online and paying with their lightning wallet. And this is similar to that but actually in the background they were using ARK and so what because Cooks came also from the world of BTC pay server, which is also a merchant payment processing platform. And so what, as I understand they had set up is they had these merchants with BTC pay
but it was ARK in the background. And so when you went to pay, you either had the option of Lightning or just directly paying with ARK. And so you could scan a QR and on the front to the end user, to you and I buying our coffees and our food, you could pay with Lightning. But…
The cool thing is, actually in the background, I believe it was Bolts.Exchange who were doing like a swap in the background. And so what’s happening is that merchant is, it’s the end user is paying in Lightning, it’s being swapped into ARK, a VTXO, a virtual transaction output. And then later that merchant, you know, just get, and you know, that merchant can just have a very simple, you know, arcade wallet, send, send Sats, receive Sats experience. And when they want to batch out, they can sort of batch out all of their payments.
add all of their VTXOs into Bitcoin mainchain UTXOs. So that was really interesting. And as you said, this is like, we’re starting to see, let’s say, quote unquote, real production L2s other than Lightning, right? Because for so long, it’s just been kind of a Lightning is the only truly, you know, production ready L2 that’s, you know, actually, yeah.
dbf (06:15)
I
mean, I wouldn’t say so. There’s also Liquid, which you can argue whether it’s L2 or it’s a sidechain or whatever. I mean, Liquid been there for years and ⁓ it’s really amazing because we’ve been working with Liquid. I mean, mostly on the level of that. For example, in DebiFi, you can borrow using Liquid Desert.
Stephan Livera (06:23)
Right.
dbf (06:42)
and it just works really nice and people are like, ⁓ people are really enjoying it. But overall, yeah, ARK, my case with ARK is that ⁓ at least it looks promising from the perspective of building different tools on top of ARK and then these tools will be compatible with Lightning. That was a huge problem because Lightning is perfect for payments.
I totally agree with that. mean, whatever you want to buy on the conference, outside of the conference, Lightning is just perfect for that. But in terms of building different type of financial tools on top of that, whether we’re talking about trading, ⁓ lending, don’t know, whatever, Lightning wasn’t perfect. And you couldn’t build a lot of interesting stuff on top of that. Finally, I hope ARK will bring to the table that
lightning will become a proper tool to build some cool stuff on top of that.
Stephan Livera (07:47)
Yeah, so yeah, I mean, yeah, I see it like this just we’re seeing this ⁓ Further exploration and maturation of other L2s, let’s say ⁓ and I guess depending on whether you count liquid or not ⁓
Yeah, you would say, yeah, but there’s a bunch of these now. So you got lightning, there’s liquid, there’s arc, there’s people doing like e-cash things with cashew or fediment, there’s spark as well. ⁓ So there’s all these different things. And of course there are people even over in ZK roll up land, people are trying to do things on that side as well. yeah, so ⁓ we’ve spoken a bit about Baltic Honey Badger. Let’s give just a quick overview for people who aren’t familiar with DebiFi. What is the main product? As I understand, it’s multi-sig.
collateralized lending against your Bitcoin and you can get stable coins or fiat in the bank account borrowing against your coins. So can you just give a quick overview? What is the model with DebitFi?
dbf (08:35)
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, so basically, we adopted the already existing model from retail space, ⁓ peer to peer. And basically, the idea of DebitFi is that we want to bridge ⁓ institutional liquidity providers. Also from trade five space like banks and hedge funds and other like regulated or non regulated entities, but those who are not regulated, they are allowed to issue loans.
and we want to bridge bridge this liquidity providers with Bitcoiners across the globe. So we on board from one side, ⁓ different type of institutional lenders, it’s only institutional lenders that operates on DebitFi. And on the other side, we bring borrowers, both private individuals and corporates. So it’s like, I like to explain it in simple terms, it’s like eBay for Bitcoin loans, know, it’s DebitFi is just
technical infrastructure provider, so we’re building this marketplace. It’s effectively a marketplace of liquidity for Bitcoin back lending. And ⁓ every time borrower and lender engage in a contract, they create together a multisig on the public Bitcoin blockchain. So it’s like fully transparent. We don’t have any wallets. We don’t store any funds. They create it with their own keys.
Currently we have a model by default, which is three out of four. So it’s like four keys to this multisig. One key goes to DebiFi, one goes to lender, one key goes to borrower, and one key goes to independent authorized key holder, which is an independent entity that holds a backup key. And you can only move collateral from the escrow by having majority of the keys, which is three keys at least. So… ⁓
Then you have a multisig, then Borrower deposits collateral in form of Bitcoin, only Bitcoin, we work only with Bitcoin, to that multisig and then lender sends either stablecoins, if it’s a stablecoin based offer, or it could be also fiat, if ⁓ it’s a fiat based offer. And we provide lenders with all the necessary infrastructure, including like loan portfolio management,
You can set up your terms, KYC KYB will like connect you to our KYC KYB model so you can gather all the necessary information. So it’s basically, yeah, it’s institutional grade platform that allows any liquidity provider who doesn’t have any technical expertise in building complicated ⁓ and highly secure environments with Bitcoin to start operating on the Bitcoin back market.
Stephan Livera (11:34)
Excellent. so, yeah, so I guess in simple terms, this is the Bitcoin collateralized lending market for, let’s say, larger dollar amounts. So what are the thresholds that you’re working with ⁓ here?
dbf (11:35)
Bitcoin lending market.
We have
actually the minimum size is 25,000 for a loan. But we have some lenders who asked us, we go a bit lower? So you can borrow also lower amounts. And we’re also going to launch pretty soon an infrastructure that will allow you to take microloans from different lenders in the form of a payment card.
Stephan Livera (11:56)
Okay, I gotcha.
Gotcha. Okay, so then it doesn’t necessarily have to be large loaned. Okay, fair enough. So, yeah.
dbf (12:19)
So we’re.
Yeah,
it could be just like $500 up to $1000. For now, it’s going to be like micro lending site will be from $500 up to $1000. We’re partnering with the Bitcoin company. So you will get your loan in form of prepaid card directly to your mobile phone and all the user experience and all the like path from
onboarding and getting the load will be through mobile phone so you can do it on the go because demify also has an app so it’s an app plus website
Stephan Livera (12:56)
Yeah, okay. And so ⁓ then, in terms of the loan ⁓ term, can you explain a bit about that? Like, is it like a one year loan term? Or how does that work? What’s the what’s the threshold there?
dbf (13:09)
Yeah,
at the moment you’re getting some very, very interesting information from me with your questions, because, know, we didn’t announce it yet, but guess I’m going to use your podcast to announce. So at the moment, yeah, at the moment, I already did mention the cards. So we’re launching the public beta basically next week. And ⁓
Stephan Livera (13:21)
Alright, it’s a scoop.
dbf (13:34)
As for the duration of the loans, currently it’s up to 12 months, but in September it’s going to be 24 months. But you need to understand that we have different lenders and it’s up to lender. It’s an open market. I mean, it’s, it’s a
Stephan Livera (13:42)
fantastic,
Yeah, so you have to find
a counterparty. You have to find someone who’s willing to do the opposite.
dbf (13:51)
Yes,
if most of the lender will say no, I’m fine with like shorter terms, then we cannot do about anything about that. We just have a functionality in the feature that will allow you to issue loans up to 24 months. If there will be lenders who will like to use that feature, fine. If no, sorry, the market decided differently. mean, we cannot, again, we don’t touch the cash flow. We just provide technical infrastructure.
As long as they’re like liquidity providers who are happy with 24 month loan duration, fine, let it be.
Stephan Livera (14:26)
Yeah. Okay, great. And so ⁓ I am curious and I’m sure listeners want to know what are now as you said, it’s a market but what’s like roughly the ranges that we’re working with here for borrowing against Bitcoin? Like how much are people paying on the borrower side to borrow against a Bitcoin?
dbf (14:46)
Yeah.
So the average interest rate on the market across most of the platforms like a consensus interest rate, I would say is like 12 % at the moment. And I mean, there’s like some platforms that use this like level system, you know, you borrow more, you pay a bit less, but it’s like
Stephan Livera (14:59)
Yeah.
dbf (15:09)
some of them just like, you know, crazy figures, you know, you borrow from 5 million from 10 million, then you’re going to get like cheaper interest rate. But most of the borrowing is happening in the range between I would say 10,000 up to 200, 300,000. When I say most, I’m meaning on the market, you know, it’s not on particular on DebitFi. And in that rate, most of the loan sizes are most of the interest rates are
Stephan Livera (15:33)
Yeah.
dbf (15:40)
around 12%. So 12 % is the average interest rate at the moment on the market. You can go by the way, we briefly talked with you about zone 21 website, I’m sure we’re to touch base on that. But you can go on that website or follow them on Twitter. And you can see that they’re like updating the interest rate across the board of different lending protocols and platforms. And it’s actually true, I’m not making these numbers up. The good thing is that
DebiFi on boards more and more lenders and we on board more and more lenders from trade by space to work closer to like cheap capital and closer to like cheap capital markets. And we already see that there has been some private loans issued with single digit single digit interest rate. Like the best interest rate that we saw in our marketplace was nine percent.
⁓ It ⁓ was in ⁓ in Swiss francs, which is like, yeah, still it’s different currency than most of the loan because the main currency for the lending business is USD yet still. And but it was single digit loan and ⁓ it was a good amount of money wasn’t like super high. It wasn’t like millions. We were talking about thousands.
tens of thousands. So I mean, we are moving in that direction, I guess, next year, if market going to develop as it has been developing, we’re going to touch bit touch on like single digit loan size or like low double digit, like 10%, something like that, because a year ago, it was actually 16%. And you still can if you will go to peer to peer marketplaces, you still can see that some of the interest rates are
above 40%. It’s like 15, 16%. So I mean, as cost of capital will go lower as more and more liquidity will go into the market, we’ll see that rates are dropping. it’s not gonna like a lot of people who are not familiar with the space and a lot of Bitcoiners, no offense, but they say like, you know, it’s it’s a pristine super collateral. You should you should give me a loan with almost zero interest rate. And I mean,
It’s strange because most of the lenders in the Bitcoin lending market, they’re actually Bitcoiners and they understand the value proposition of Bitcoin. So for them, it’s always, you know, should I just buy Bitcoin or should I issue a loan in fiat? And ⁓ I mean, it’s always tricky. And they also know that you are a Bitcoiner. You don’t want to sell your Bitcoin and most probably you’re going to overpay for opportunity not to sell it. So it’s a ⁓
You know it’s a double edged sword in a way that you know there’s not only borrowers who decide it’s an open market and this is what we’re proving with debify you go on debify and you see like. What market perception is across the board of different lenders what kind of rates you should you should get at this point i mean it’s going lower definitely but it’s not gonna happen that is gonna be cheaper than more to trade at some point i think it’s gonna be like.
If in the next five years we’re going to see like 6%, 5 % Bitcoin back lending rates, then I would say we are highly successful with that.
Stephan Livera (19:10)
I think one under discussed component of that is that effectively a lot of what people are used to today with fiat credit is it’s government subsidized, right? Like that’s just the bottom line. It’s government subsidized. And so if you’re having to interact with a person who would otherwise be able to buy Bitcoin with that money, it’s gonna be a tough sell for them to give because think about what they’re giving up on the, if you are on the lender side of the house here.
dbf (19:32)
Yeah.
Stephan Livera (19:39)
and you are already somewhat Bitcoin savvy, you have to think how much am I gonna charge this guy, the borrower, for him to use my fiat that I have, hypothetically, and for me to not buy Bitcoin with that. And also, our friend Matthew Mesinkis, who spoke at Baltic Honey Badger, he does these base money reports. And oftentimes, if you look at how much base money is expanding, it’s like 10 or 12 % per year.
That’s how much fiat is expanding. it’s kind of like, actually when you think about it, if fiat is expanding at 12 % per year and someone is lending you at 12 % a year, it’s almost like, know, net-net, you know?
dbf (20:17)
Yeah,
mean, ⁓ back lending is definitely a part of portfolio strategy for most of the liquidity providers. They still have Bitcoin, but they prefer also because effectively what Bitcoin back lending is, especially over collateralized Bitcoin back lending, it could be considered as a basically Bitcoin bond. You know, it’s something that is backed by this hard asset, which is Bitcoin.
It’s over collateralized, meaning that even if your borrower will fail to repay, you will get his collateral in any way. And it just pays you a coupon every year. Like imagine you’re taking a loan for your lender, you’re providing a loan for let’s say two years with 10 % interest rate. So your coupon effectively is 10 % per year plus your over collateralized. It’s actually even bought.
better than the bond because bond is the like government bond is like you trust in that that this particular government of this country or if it’s a like corporate bond that this particular management team will be able to return you on your investment and not fail, which couldn’t be true. At some point we see what happened where Argentina with Greece, a lot of these countries and Bitcoin back landing. The good thing about it is for the lender. It’s also a win-win because
It’s always backed and over collateralized by Bitcoin and Bitcoin is like super the best asset in the world you can have and there’s multiple reasons but one of the most important reason that it’s 24 7 tradable meaning that if your borrower get liquidated you can sell the collateral and cash out right into the money depends on what you call the money of course but you can cash out right into the money any time of the year any
Any hour of the day basically because markets are so liquid and they’re getting more and more efficient. So it’s it’s like it’s a perfect collateral and the perfect opportunity to earn extra because i see those like conventional lenders who are trying to lend out money get bit more margin and they’re lending out money against like operational businesses or even.
non collateralized loan with 30 % risk premium and a lot of them are actually failing because that’s the general failure of the system, know, printed money. And with Bitcoin, there’s such an amazing opportunity. You can get double digit returns, super over collateralized with the perfect asset in the world. And a lot of trade five guys are sleeping on that. But I think it’s like the narrative is shifting, especially with BlackRock and with
the ETF and with all these treasury companies coming to the market. mean, there’s more and more demand for Bitcoin back landing and they’re like waking up to that opportunity.
Stephan Livera (23:10)
Right. And I think you’re right because ultimately there are so many fiat investors who are just getting wrecked in bonds today. Right. And so sometimes I get a bit… ⁓ It’s like I see a lot of hand-wringing inside of the Bitcoin, let’s say in our little echo chamber of Bitcoin maxis, where people are kind of hand-wringing about, my gosh, this treasury company, this or this whatever thing. Why don’t people just go and buy Bitcoin? But you’ve got to understand, like there’s a lot of… There’s just a lot of capital that is extremely conservative.
dbf (23:18)
Yeah.
Stephan Livera (23:40)
not willing to just go buy Bitcoin. They’re just not willing to go and do these things. And so if they can just get something, right, if they can come on, let’s say now we’re speaking on the lender side of the house here, if they as a fiat, you know, denominated person could just come to these platforms and put some fiat on this and be earning, like you said, 12 % or maybe a little bit higher, 12 to 15%. That’s absolutely killing what they’re earning currently.
dbf (23:43)
Thank you.
Yeah.
And that there’s a lot of. Yeah, I mean, with treasury companies, a lot of people doesn’t understand that it’s a good way to get Bitcoin exposure for a lot of trade by companies and a lot of funds and a lot of, you know, pension funds, because in their like rules, it’s written, you know, some in some of them, like you cannot be exposed directly to Bitcoin or to like volatile assets, you know, you need to be very concerned. And for them, like
Stephan Livera (24:08)
So I think that there’s just a big disconnect there.
dbf (24:37)
buying some micro strategy or strategy shares or other meta planet shares or black rod ETF is a way to how to get exposure to the Bitcoin because they’re like bored or those who made those rules are very like old school thinking and they don’t believe in Bitcoin. it’s like, it’s a good way to kind of orange peel to some extent.
largest capital providers in the world like ⁓ you know there was a news I think two days ago that ⁓ largest pension fund largest state fund in the world which is in the region state fund they just increase their their you know exposure to I think it was met a planet and strategy both of them or blackrock ETF I missed on that but
They’re almost doubled the amount that they invested. I mean, that’s it. I’m happy for that because obviously that means like adoption is growing, you know.
Stephan Livera (25:37)
Yeah, and I think that’s exactly it. We need to zoom out a bit because honestly, there are some people who are so caught up in the echo chamber or they’re sort of, I think it’s like the theory of mind thing, right? If you don’t model other people’s mind correctly, you might just think, hey, everyone should just buy Bitcoin and it’s just so obvious. Well, yes, yes, people should all be buying and huddling Bitcoin, but they won’t, not yet. And we’re Maxis, we want as many people to adopt Bitcoin as possible.
And I see this as like, this is like, you’re structuring things in a way that you’re helping some of these. And that’s why I’m…
you know, generally speaking, I’m bullish on the treasury companies and I’m bullish on, you know, Bitcoin lending and I’m bullish on just Bitcoin for medium of exchange, right? I’m just bullish on all of these things. I want more people to use Bitcoin in whatever way is possible. Now, of course, not your keys, not your coins. We want as many people to learn about self-custody, but you know, there’s a ramp, there’s an on-ramp for these things and people don’t all come in in the perfect, let’s say, purity signaling, purity spiraling way. So that’s where I see it. And I think
If you maybe if you could explain a little bit on the lender side, what are some of the hurdles or mental blocks that you sort of see or if you’re presenting the platform debify to them? What are the main objections that they are throwing to you and saying, I’m not sure about it or I don’t I’m not ready for this yet. Or maybe my you know, maybe their investors are not comfortable with them doing this yet.
dbf (27:02)
Yeah, so I mean, it’s not about the core value proposition, know, Bitcoin back landing. It’s more about ⁓ for most for some of them, it’s more about ⁓ self custody or collaborative custody. This is this is our path. You know, it’s harder than building a custodial solution. Definitely. So what we say to them is that you’re going to hold one of your one of the keys, you’re going to you’re going to self custody one of your keys.
Yes, we’re building infrastructure for that so you can do it very easy. We’re going to announce some big integrations also very soon. That will allow basically any institution in the world to hold the key to the epiphy escrow through solutions that they prefer in their day to day operations. But it’s still a hurdle in a way as self custody for most of the people is still a hurdle, you know, and it’s a
It’s a path and we knew when we started, knew that it’s going to be hard on the educational side, but it’s surprisingly, it’s easier than we expected. So for now, a lot of new entrants who want to enter into Bitcoin lending space, they want to do like, okay, I want to custody all the collaterals in my, you know, in my custody or in my
⁓ third party custodian that is like ⁓ you know there’s big names outside out there I’m not gonna name them but and for them the concept of the multisig is is bit new so that would I would probably say that that’s the most ⁓ you know challenging part of our ⁓ offering
We’re making it way more simpler than it was. like, again, by the end of the year, it will be very simple to, you know, hold your key to the collateral. But that’s also we cannot compromise on that because on the other side, we have borrowers who are Bitcoiners and they value multisig approach because of what happened with BlockFi, Celsius, FTX, you know, they don’t like the custody. And the case with DebitFi is that, you know, it’s like gradually then suddenly.
We have on the pipeline a lot of interesting liquidity providers, very traditional, who are going to be onboarded in the next three to six months. And it’s going to be kind of, I expect there’s going to be a small revolution in like trade-fi world because of the partnership that we’re going to announce. And the case is that, you know, it’s going to be just easier and easier for them to self-custody. And that’s the…
service we want to provide and that’s the service we want to provide to borrowers, to Bitcoiners because we want to onboard this institution to the proper way of doing the Bitcoin lending and the proper way from our perspective is a multisig because if you will look at the history of Bitcoin back landing, you know, the project that easily survived the wave of bankruptcies that was happening in 2020 or 2022, don’t remember the particular, when the BlockFi Celsius all did
Stephan Livera (30:17)
2022,
yeah. like that FTX bottom was kind of late 2022. Yeah.
dbf (30:18)
2022? Yeah,
yeah. These were the projects that they were using multi-seg. It was like basically unchanged and hodl hodl, you know, no issues at all. And this is what we are like we’re preaching and we’re trying to move to the market. And I expect that as soon as we’re going to complete some of the features that we’re building at the moment, and as soon as we’re going to onboard some of the
liquidity providers that have even cheaper cost of capital than those who operates the Custodial Lending Platform. It will be no-brainer for most of the Bitcoiners and most of the trade-fi companies how to operate on the market because effectively if you can get the same rate but the security is like 10x better, what’s the purpose of using Custodial Lending Platform? Maybe for some micro-lending and micro-loans there is a purpose because it could be faster and like
Seamless or maybe as a first loan just as the first buy you do through coinbase or Binance or Kraken a lot of people just on board through this custodial services but then when you when you will have to borrow a significant amount and you’ll have to lock a significant amount of your Bitcoin into collateral you’re gonna think twice what I want to trust with my Bitcoin to the third party custody provider
or I want to make it the collaborative custody and hold one of the keys to the escrow.
Stephan Livera (31:49)
Yeah, so I mean, I think you Yeah, I think it’s that’s really that really is the trade off that we’re going to see this competition between the quote unquote trad fire style, maybe arguably the trust me bro style of lending versus the more defy on chain multi sig style. And okay, maybe there’s there’s other styles, but let’s say the more the closer to self custody, even though it’s kind of hybrid.
dbf (32:06)
No,
Yeah,
I don’t like the DeFi, you know, DeFi thing. in ⁓ general, yeah, it’s just, you know, triggers me as a maxi. But ⁓ yeah, kind of more, I would say, custodial versus non custodial, that’s the proper way to frame it. And I think that if you go for if you look at the trading business, definitely custodial trading will be
Stephan Livera (32:18)
Right, the word is a bit triggering, let’s say.
dbf (32:40)
most probably for the next five to ten years will be the bigger ⁓ part of the the trading volumes in a Bitcoin space because you know traders they just need like they need the fast execution frequency you know they cannot afford themselves lose seconds when something is happening but with the lending you usually borrow for a longer time period and
Stephan Livera (33:05)
Right, so doesn’t matter as much.
dbf (33:07)
doesn’t matter as much. What matters in lending is how safe is your collateral. A lot of people, neglect that. They think that, hey, there’s like a shiny, nice thing or they’re like, ⁓ they have a proof of reserve, which is a good way and a step forward, the new thing, proof of reserve. But actually what proof of reserve proves is that your Bitcoin, you send Bitcoin to a particular address and it’s there in that address.
It doesn’t prove how keys to this address mean management managed, who owns the keys to this address, et cetera, et cetera. It’s, it’s actually still trust me, bro, as you said, you know, and yeah, a lot of entities are regulated, highly licensed, everything like that. And I think that both custodial lending and non-custodial lending will have a place and space in the market because the market is just big and it’s going to be bigger.
But I think if we’re to talk about large volume loans and we see that from our perspective and like companies, Bitcoin companies borrowing, I would say it’s probably going to shift the narrative significantly towards the non-custodial lending. Because if Bitcoin companies coming to us, whether it’s a mining company or it’s a hardware company or something like that.
One of the reasons why they’re coming to us, they’re saying we want to use multisig. We either borrowing through multisig or we’re not borrowing at all. And we don’t care what kind of license, brand and ⁓ custody provider or custody solution you have. As long as it’s not transparent as it is with DebiFi, know, open source, fully transparent, you can always verify through any blockchain explorer. We’re not using it. So that’s the
Stephan Livera (34:35)
Right.
Gotcha, yeah, so
there’ll be those users who are more security conscious and they’ll be more interested in this kind of thing. Now, I guess just to kind of throw an example at you and I’m curious to hear how you think about this because if we think about today, where is a lot of the wealth, right? It’s typically TradFi boomers, right? They’ve got their whatever their stockbroking app.
And that’s where probably the boomers are holding a lot of their wealth today. And they might like, for example, all the integrations together, right? Like, is they’re used to kind of having maybe ⁓ a private banker who they can call up or email, and they want it all in one, you know, because they want to borrow against it. And then let’s say have like, you know, a physical card that they can use to kind of borrow some, you know, and then use to spend right to off ramp. ⁓ Or they might want to be able to quickly trade around ⁓ to different whatever to borrow against as an example, maybe they want to
borrow against some Bitcoin, get some fiat and then buy strategy or meta planet, right? As an example. So maybe that’s also a competitive dynamic of like, there’ll be kind of the one stop shop, go to this service and we can kind of give you everything, but the trade off is it’s a little more trust me bro on the custody side of things compared to the more secure, let’s say model ⁓ where you can hold one of the keys. ⁓ And so how would you compare?
dbf (35:50)
Yeah.
Stephan Livera (36:12)
you know, those different visions of products and services.
dbf (36:17)
Yeah, but it’s like you can build everything that you just explained with the multisig and it could be as seamless as what you just explained. I mean, we’re moving in that direction with DebitFi as well. I mean, it’s going to be about lending, but we can add different features as well. You you borrow against your stack, then maybe you want to just instantly buy more Bitcoin and hold it in like multisig custody. You know, you can build everything with multisig.
It’s just harder, know, a lot of founders, they’re choosing the easier way, which I cannot blame them. Honestly, maybe I’m just, you know, stop bored and crazy in a way. If I would do it like us custodial way would be way more easier for me. Much simpler.
Stephan Livera (37:04)
much simpler from your perspective, but of course,
yeah, but I mean, of course, maybe less secure, maybe less verifiable and kind of less, let’s say, unquote, cypherpunk Bitcoin or ethos, let’s say, is to kind of make it more, at least closer to the non custodial side of things, even if it’s not 100%. Right? Because obviously, you’re holding one, not four keys. But that’s fair enough, because the lender wants some
dbf (37:11)
Yeah, and
Stephan Livera (37:28)
Assurance on his side that like the borrower is not just gonna like run away with the money obviously So it’s kind of I would say it’s closer to non-custodial. They’re not fully non-custodial for which for fair enough reason for fair reasons ⁓ Is how I understand it? But yeah, like you said we are going to see I think these kind of clashing worlds in a way of like there’ll be the trust me bro model of like hey just custodial everything in one app and whatever and then there’ll be sort of the more
dbf (37:31)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Stephan Livera (37:55)
⁓ Multi SIG style vision and maybe in a liquid world like okay The idea is we’re using Bitcoin as the main chain and liquid is a side chain a federated side chain and inside of liquid people can do things there too, right they can like Get as an example, they could get liquid tether and then instantly buy liquid Bitcoin with that
dbf (38:09)
Yeah.
Stephan Livera (38:14)
or they could instantly flip to even if they want to do all the treasury company stuff, like what Adam Back is doing instantly by, you know, see MSTR or like these tokenized forms of strategy or meta planet or what these different ⁓ treasury companies. So these things will exist, but just in different formats and people just have to learn how to let’s say, traverse these different worlds, right?
dbf (38:36)
Yeah,
I think that the cases that with non-custodial service also that not many people and participants in the market understand that as price of Bitcoin will grow, there will be two main reasons why people wants to borrow through non-custodial services. Number one is that generally you don’t want to sell when you see that your Bitcoin that you hold for like five years is growing.
I don’t know, three X four. Yeah, you don’t want to sell. what do you do? How you derive utility from from your stash and from your stack? How you do that? You’re going to go and borrow against that, obviously. And the second thing as price will grow, you will be more risk aware and you will be more paranoid in a way.
Stephan Livera (39:08)
Like 9x or something or whatever, yeah.
dbf (39:32)
Should I actually send my Bitcoin to this custody or to this exchange or to the service provider? Or I can make another path. I can just send it to the Multisig, which I can verify and I can hold my keys on a cold card, which we would DebiFi support at the moment and there will be more hardware wallets integrated. And I can create this multiple security layers.
And it’s like, it’s a collaborative custody, meaning there’s like institutional, like custody players involved. And the second player is also institution, which is a lender. So you will be more like risk cautious. So as the price will grow, I envision there will be more demand for Bitcoin back landing and there will be way more demand for non-custodial Bitcoin back landing. Of course, it’s always goes with UI and UX and the experience, as you said, you know, I want to have everything in one place, but it’s
Actually, it’s, it’s possible to build trading custody, lending in one app through multisig. It’s a no brainer. just takes a bit more time and a bit more effort. But eventually, you know, that type of project I envisioned they’re like built for years and centuries upfront, because they’re like, it’s hard to scale this stuff. But when you scale it, you know, it just goes and grows by itself. It’s like self fulfilling, you know,
stuff that just goes, goes, goes, goes, goes.
Stephan Livera (41:02)
Yeah, gotcha. so, yeah, I think we’ve spoken about, you the reasons why people do these things. So on the lender side, right, obviously, if they’ve got some fiat allocation, either they’re a no coiner or they’re a bitcoiner who has some fiat allocation and they would like to earn some yield out of that by being on the lending side of the house. ⁓ Now let’s talk about the borrower side of the house. Now you touched on this.
dbf (41:19)
Yeah.
Stephan Livera (41:26)
probably for many people, they’ve built up a Bitcoin stack over some time. They would rather either not pay capital gains taxes and or maintain exposure to Bitcoin. So they would rather borrow against it. So as long as they can get a decent rate and a decent terms, this kind of thing.
And then maybe there are some other people who want to maybe they have other commercial projects that they would like to do. So they want to borrow against the Bitcoin, get some fiat, use that fiat for those commercial projects. ⁓ And maybe for some of those people, that’s they want to do Bitcoin mining. For some people, that’s they want to invest in Bitcoin, treasury companies. For other people, it’s just some other fiat, totally unrelated, unrelated to Bitcoin business. ⁓ What are you seeing?
Or some people they want to go long Bitcoin, right? They want to borrow against their Bitcoin get some fiat and then buy Bitcoin Because obviously they love Bitcoin. They want to you know, go long Bitcoin ⁓ What are the uses that you are saying? Is it mainly those other uses that you would see on the borrowing side of the house?
dbf (42:26)
⁓ I mean, the use cases and the users on the borrowing side are, well, for private individuals mostly to, you know, buy more Bitcoin, which is not surprising. So effectively, you’re just leveraging through multisig, you know, it’s a safe way to do the leverage. Again, there’s no, there’s no custody risk or significantly decreased custody risk.
Stephan Livera (42:36)
Fair enough.
dbf (42:51)
So that’s number one. ⁓ Number two, and again, I’m putting number one, number two, not in terms of priority, just use cases. It’s not like buying more Bitcoin is the most obvious and popular case, but it’s like very popular. Then some expenses, just life expenses. I’m relocating, I’m buying a house. I don’t know, I wanna buy some stuff and I don’t wanna sell. I have…
In 12 months, I expect that either the price of Bitcoin will grow and I can just cover part of my loan with the Bitcoin price difference or I don’t know, I expect that I’m going to have different resources of my cash flow and I will be able to pay back my loan. Another important feature to consider is that actually when you sell Bitcoin in most of the countries, it’s a subject to capital gain tax.
So when you borrow in most of the countries, you are not paying the capital gain tax. So that’s effectively avoiding the capital gain tax in a lot of countries.
Stephan Livera (43:56)
So I
guess you can think of it like instead of paying 20, 30, 40 % capital gains tax, I’d rather pay 12 % interest, kind of, loosely speaking.
dbf (44:03)
Yeah, I’ll pay 12
% interest, you know, and I’m going to keep my Bitcoin. That’s probably worth of 100 % more. But for the corporates, it’s usually very simple. There’s two use cases. Again, we’ve been approached by some Treasury companies and some companies also that have private Treasury.
And obviously they also don’t want to sell, but they want to cover their operational costs. That’s number one reason. it’s like operational costs. I don’t want to sell my Bitcoin. You know, we have like certain amount of Bitcoin on the balance sheet and we just want to borrow against that. Then there’s like business expansion. You know, we’re launching the new product line or we are going into the new market. want to borrow against our Bitcoin and again expand.
And with treasuries companies, ⁓ some of the treasury companies, don’t have opportunity to borrow that easily on the public markets. know, either they’re new or they don’t have these capabilities yet. And then what they do, they don’t want to sell Bitcoin because that’s basically the promise that they’re delivering to the market. You know, we’re not selling, we’re keeping Bitcoin on a balance sheet. How they can buy more?
Obviously, they can borrow against the Bitcoin and get a loan and buy more Bitcoin. And with that, increase the amount of Bitcoin in the treasuries.
Stephan Livera (45:35)
Gotcha. Yeah. Now, of course, people should be aware about things like LTV and also like liquidation and margin calls and things like this. So can you just explain a bit about like what are the typical thresholds that you use? Do people modify that or is it just like a set LTV and liquidation?
dbf (45:41)
Of course.
We have currently we have a default ⁓ LTV liquidation rate 90 percent. So the LTV you can use to borrow for fiat it’s 50 percent default by default. So in order to borrow let’s say five million worth of BTC you need to put 10 million worth of BTC.
And for stable coins is from 30 to 70%, meaning that you can borrow against 10 million and you can borrow anything in the range of 3 million to 7 million. ⁓ But we are going to release a new feature pretty much soon where every lender will be able to ⁓ put their own like LTV and margin call levels. So it’s not going to be like fixed. You know, you can, you will be
Stephan Livera (46:39)
Gotcha. It’s very like manual.
They can set what they like. Yeah.
dbf (46:43)
Yeah, they can set any terms. So I mean, some lenders might say, okay, we were not going to liquidate ⁓ Bitcoin at all. I mean, we have some capacity to withstand any type of volatility. And we’re to liquidate at 95%, which is really high liquidation liquidation rate, right? Some of them will say, we want to liquidate in fiat or we want to liquidate in stable coin.
We want to have like more room for volatility and we’re gonna liquidate at 80 % or 85%. So it’s up to lender, it will be up to lender to decide how they wanna build the margin call system and the liquidation system. And then it’s up to borrower to go out and decide like whether I’m fine with this offer or I wanna have this offer. And also with Multisig,
Stephan Livera (47:34)
Yep.
dbf (47:39)
It’s not happening automatically. That’s the good thing for the borrowers because at the moment it’s like some of the processes are automatic and some of them are still like requires the double checking and signing from involved parties. The release of collateral in favor of the lender in case of liquidation. And what we’re going to ⁓ release pretty much soon as well there was demand from few of the lenders.
is that there will be a feature which will be called delayed liquidation which means that even if you’re liquidated you will still have like 24 hours or maybe even 48 hours to negotiate with the lender that I mean I don’t know I was sleeping I was flying I don’t know I was in the woods and I missed the the price action so maybe I can repay you in part repay fully or maybe add bit more to collateral so
you will be able to avoid liquidation if lender is happy to take that risk.
Stephan Livera (48:42)
Gotcha. And then I guess the other question that now again, thinking from the lender’s perspective here, he will probably think I’ve got to place a bit of trust in Debi-Fi’s execution here, right? Because let’s say the price hits a certain level, I’m placing a bit of trust in your, let’s say your execution engine to kind of do the liquidation or whatever, if they’ve set certain percentages. So can you just explain a bit how that works, at least at the Debi-Fi platform level?
dbf (49:09)
Well, it’s it’s a technical, I mean, we use a very robust price oracle. First of all, that’s a crucial and important. Anything that goes with the lending, you need to have a strong price oracle and we use it. It’s a public information. think we use multiple, it’s 12 or 14 different exchanges in the world, like most liquid. Yeah, and we take average. So in case one of them having some issues,
Stephan Livera (49:31)
Right. And you take like an average of those? Yeah.
dbf (49:38)
⁓ It’s not going to impact the liquidation cycle because it’s just one. So only if there’s like a massive price action and there’s a consensus amongst majority, then it could happen. I mean, liquidation. And then again, as I said, even if you’re liquidated, it doesn’t mean that collateral ⁓ left the escrow already. It usually requires a certain ⁓ action from the lender perspective. So you need to go online and sign the release transaction.
So there’s always a room to negotiate, renegotiate the terms. ⁓ yeah, everything else is happening automatically. So as soon as the margin call, the final margin call hits, we move the contract in the stage of liquidation, which means that at this point, borrower doesn’t have any option to sign or…
Stephan Livera (50:13)
Gotcha. Yep.
dbf (50:33)
press anything but you can chat to the contract chat and you can just try to negotiate with the lender but again. i said and i’ll continue saying you know there’s no magic bill or there’s no magic stuff happening it’s a market it’s a landing market you can be liquidated so you need to do your own risk management and i always say if you’re considering borrowing never borrow against your all of your bitcoin you know.
borrow against part of it because you might need the second part in order there’s like again huge volatility and huge price action you want to avoid liquidation so you can put bit more to the collateral and rebalance LTV which happens automatically on DebitFi because you can send a bit more Bitcoin to the same multisig address yeah and our system will rebalance LTV automatically and you will avoid it
Stephan Livera (51:24)
to that same address, right.
We’ll see. Oh, okay. Look,
Stefan, you put more collateral in, therefore now your LTV has come back into the safe range or whatever. Right.
dbf (51:35)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Stephan Livera (51:37)
Okay, and now another question from the now if you’re on the lender side of the house here, let’s say you are a person who’s borrowing against Bitcoin for living expenses. Now that person may want to keep rolling it over. Right? So let’s say at the end of that one year term or two year term, he may he might want to do another one or another two year term for a larger amount or whatever. Can you explain how that would work? Like does your system? Does the platform have that? Or is it more like a manual thing that the borrower would have to find?
dbf (51:56)
Yeah, Yeah.
Stephan Livera (52:07)
⁓ an offer to do a roll over.
dbf (52:08)
You can you can you can
just first of all, you can just send a message to contract chat to the to the lender. In fact, we have a contract chats available through the website, but it’s going to be available to mobile app next week. So again, on the go, right, you can just send a message saying, hey, I would like to, you know, roll over. So we allow roll overs and that’s actually happening quite frequently on Debi fi.
What we’re gonna do we’re gonna build a bit more features for the borrower So the first of all there will be an opportunity to automatically request a rollover. So you just press a button and lenders notify that hey, there’s a there’s a There’s a request to do a rollover secondly as I said and there will be more and more underlying like features if your lender, you know says says like
Hey, I’m not gonna do the rollover, then we will be able to find you another lender and just allocate your offer in our internal lender list. So it’s gonna be like fully automatically. Then as I said, it’s gonna be 24 month period. I mean, I envisioned there will be a bunch of lenders that will be able to offer 24 month period. So you don’t need to actually to do the rollover after 12 months, you just continue your contract.
And then we also building a feature which we are calling, it’s like counter offer where borrower can find an offer on the public offer list and maybe he doesn’t like duration or maybe he doesn’t like the LTV ratio, then you can just make a counter offer to the lender and if lender agrees, you got your deal. If he doesn’t agree, we’re gonna…
publish your offer and send it across the board to other lenders. So maybe someone, some of them will pick it up.
Stephan Livera (54:03)
interesting. Yeah. So in a way, it means maybe you’re not as ⁓ let’s say captive to one particular lender that you can sort of like in a way that kind of helps the market be a bit more let’s say competitive, as opposed to kind of being stuck in with one particular particular lender. that’s our one particular Yeah, one particular lender. So interesting dynamics there. So I guess, final question, where are you looking? Where do think this goes? I think
dbf (54:11)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Stephan Livera (54:32)
There has been a lot of growth in this whole Bitcoin lending borrowing market in you the recent Well this year basically that’s what I’m hearing when I talk to people So where do you see it going over the next, you know, four or five years? What’s your? prediction of How big this market gets or anything like that?
dbf (54:52)
I mean, predicting the market size, I think it’s going to be really huge. And I think any prediction that you’re going to make now as it was with Bitcoin, you know, it’s just it’s just going to outperform any any type of prediction. So I think the Bitcoin lending market will eventually become large, very large. It’s like it’s a super huge because it’s like it’s a perfect storm in a way that again, you have the super collateral, which is highly liquid tradable. You know, you can liquidate any any point of time.
is decentralized, it’s fully transparent, and you can build a lot of interesting tools in a way like custody and etc. etc. and transparency as well. I think there will be definitely number one prediction, the rates will go lower. Maybe
Maybe it’s not gonna happen like instantly maybe next week next year or next week we’re gonna see some beer market You know and the rates will stay the same because there will be like risk risk will increase But eventually if we’re talking about five to ten years, I think the rates will go lower and we’ll see single digit rates
And we will see single digit rates not for the like large whales who want to borrow five, 10 million, maybe hundreds of million. We’re going to see a lot single digit loan rates even for smaller loans like 5,000, 1,000, I don’t know, 10,000. And I think definitely the non-custodial space will grow and the multi-sig based lending will grow and it will outperform again any type of expectation because infrastructure is there, it’s being built.
We are moving with that before really fast and i think more and more trade fly or more and more custodial lenders will start offering non custodial feature to their customers because we have. Some of the custodial lenders that coming to us and say hey guys we have this custodial lenders custodial services you know people custody bit. Where the weather is and they are you know.
and then they are like borrowing against it. But we see that there’s a huge part of the community, huge part of our potential customers who don’t want to use us for the reason because we’re custody of their Bitcoin. They want to use something that you guys did and ⁓ effectively they’re ending up, you know, talking with us how we can provide infrastructure for them.
Stephan Livera (57:15)
Right, they might sort of white label
your platform and have it inside of their app and things like this.
dbf (57:20)
They will do that because this is also the path we’re moving into and direction we’re moving into. Because again, we are lucky that we’re not liquidity provider, we’re just technical provider and we can be very flexible on the way what we build, how we build and to whom we’re building this stuff. And I think that at some point you’re gonna see multiple custodial platforms offering non-custodial services. Hopefully they’re gonna do, most of them is gonna do this to Debi-Fi.
Because again, we’re not competing with them. We’re not trying to get your customers. We’re offering an extra service, an extra feature that is going to bring you more and more customers, will make you more and more money, and effectively it’s going to just open a new markets for you. Because again, we did our research a year ago. We’ve asked 300 Bitcoiners a simple question. If you’re going to borrow
You have two options. What options you’re going to choose. One option is like borrow with 8 % interest rate, but you’re going to custody your Bitcoin with a custodial service. And another option was borrow with 11 % but custody through a multisig. You know what? 90 % of Bitcoiners said, I would prefer overpaying for that loan, but having a certain level of control and borrowing through multisig. So that’s how much of customer you are missing if you’re a custodial service.
Stephan Livera (58:47)
Yeah, people are willing to pay a lot more for it. And I think it’s interesting to see the evolution of this because, a few years ago, obviously, you know, the Celsius and the BlockFi and the FTX and the grayscale stuff, all that stuff, three arrows capital, whatever, you name it. ⁓ That was very top of mind for a lot of people. But I think now there’s so much excitement as we kind of come back to the beginning of this conversation, the treasury companies and lending. And why is that? Because Bitcoin is growing.
Massively like you know at current on power law. It’s like 40 % at least you know this year Obviously it’s coming down over time But if Bitcoin is growing at call it 35 40 percent a year and people can borrow at like 12 percent You know, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out that there’s a business model there and that’s why there’s so much excitement now Of course listeners don’t get rekt be responsible. Don’t borrow against your whole stack
you know, you should be conservative and think about, you know, what is your income? What is your net worth? What’s the percent of your coins that you would be willing to do this kind of thing with? But
The way I’m seeing it, it can make sense, but you have to be prudent about it. But I am obviously bullish on this whole segment, sector, let’s say. And I think you’re right that the lending market is going to grow dramatically over the next four to five years. So I think we’ll leave it there. Listeners, check it out. The website is, let me get it, it’s debify.com and people can follow Max. I’ll put the links in the show notes. Max, thank you for joining me today.
dbf (1:00:20)
Stefan, thank you very much. Pleasure to talk with you, pleasure to see you, Enriga. Cheers. See you soon.