In this episode, NVK, CEO of CoinKite, discusses the advancements in Bitcoin self-custody solutions, particularly focusing on the Coldcard wallet and its new spending policies. The conversation explores the challenges businesses face in self-custody, the complexities of accounting for Bitcoin transactions, and the growing trend of Bitcoin treasuries among corporations. NVK emphasizes the importance of self-custody, the future of Bitcoin custody solutions, and the evolving landscape of Bitcoin adoption in the financial markets. The discussion also touches on the ongoing debates within the Bitcoin community regarding the Bitcoin Core development and the implications of debt in treasury companies.
Takeaways:
🔸Spending policies enhance operational security for Bitcoin transactions.
🔸Self-custody is crucial for businesses to manage Bitcoin effectively.
🔸Accounting complexities hinder Bitcoin adoption for companies.
🔸Bitcoin treasuries are becoming a popular choice for corporate investments.
🔸The market for Bitcoin collateralized loans is expected to grow.
🔸There is a need for more diverse Bitcoin custody solutions.
🔸The Bitcoin community is divided on the future of Bitcoin Core.
🔸Debt can be a useful tool for Bitcoin treasury companies.
🔸The demand for Bitcoin will continue to drive its value up.
🔸The evolution of Bitcoin will impact societal structures and power dynamics.
Timestamps:
(00:00) – Intro
(00:41) – What are Coldcard spending policies? How is it useful?
(05:19) – Why do companies not prefer self-custody?
(07:58) – Operational difficulties in accounting & taxation of Bitcoin
(10:29) – Why do BTCTCs not prefer self-custody?; Role of custodians in Bitcoin treasury management
(15:51) – How many BTCTCs will we have by EOY?
(17:11) – The Bitcoin Leaderboard ft. @BTCtreasuries
(20:46) – ‘Winner takes all’ scenarios for BTCTCs?
(22:55) – Sponsors
(24:39) – The future of financial engineering in Bitcoin
(28:11) – Any demand is good for Bitcoin
(29:56) – Is Bitcoin being co-opted?; Bitcoin’s power-shift – Economic & Political influence
(35:40) – BTCTCs using ‘cheap fiat’ to stack Bitcoin
(39:50) – Mindset shifts among Bitcoin OGs; Does everybody care about Bitcoin price?
(44:33) – NVK’s thoughts on Core
(46:48) – NVK’s thoughts on Knots
(51:09) – Should there be multiple Bitcoin implementations?
(54:50) – Closing thoughts
Links:
Sponsor:
- CoinKite.com (code LIVERA)
Stephan Livera links:
- Follow me on X: @stephanlivera
- Subscribe to the podcast
- Subscribe to Substack
Transcript:
Stephan Livera (00:01)
Hi everyone and welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast. Rejoining me on the show today is my friend NVK, known as the CEO and founder of CoinKite, the creators of the Coldcard and various other products, as well as a long time Bitcoiner. NVK, welcome back to the show.
NVK (00:17)
Thanks for having me, man. It’s been a minute.
Stephan Livera (00:20)
Yeah, it’s been a little while. I know you’ve had some good updates recently on the cold card. So we should chat a little bit about those. saw that ⁓ probably the policy thing is an interesting thing to start. So this concept of having spending policies in a single signature device. Can you talk to us a little bit about this? What does this mean? What can it be useful?
NVK (00:42)
Yeah, so I think like the background on this is that like we’ve always sort of tried to do ⁓ operational security in a way that like people can, you know, the easiest possibly way of operate their businesses or their personal sort of BTC, right? ⁓ But without us producing a same vendor app or us needing a server to co-sign
or essentially like no counterparty, right? Like that’s like a big part of like how we like to operate, like our solutions, like how can we remove counterparties, right? Even if they’re just cosigners. And we sort of like being playing with that, we created spending policies for multi-SIG on the code card so we can have two keys. One key is the device key that does policies. And then we sort of like due to market demand, we sort of expanded that to single SIG. So what does that mean?
It means that you can have ⁓ your main code card or your second one or your travel one ⁓ with an important seat on it, right? But the device can ⁓ take now spending policy. So that means, what’s the max that can spend from this device? What is the velocity of it? So how much per period, right? Like say like, one BTC max per month.
you know, in block time, of course, but you know, one BTC per month, or you need to FA from a phone in order to spend, you know, and that’s super powerful because one, first of all, is provable, right? So like you can show to, you know, the bad guy or whatever, they’re like, you know, this device is set up this way, I cannot change it, right? ⁓ That’s a big win. Another thing is you can,
for example, set up devices for coworkers, for controllers in the company. ⁓ Or when you travel, you can travel with a device that has this spending policy. you don’t have to trust the operator with ⁓ how much he can spend. Now, of course, it has trade-offs. It has security limitations because it’s based on the hardware security. ⁓ The current architecture.
has not been demonstrated to us that somebody can extract a seed, for example. ⁓ But again, it’s like, is this for your total life savings in single sig, no passphrase, absolutely not. But this is robust enough that you should be able to operate your business needs on your monthly basis or quarterly basis without too much worry. Yeah.
Stephan Livera (03:19)
Right.
Right. So this is like
your business warm wallet, not your deep cold life savings or business, you know, large stack, but it’s more if you want a warm wallet set up or kind of cold, but with certain spending policies that allow you to let’s say rate limit the amount of coins or whitelist addresses, this kind of thing.
NVK (03:39)
Yeah, so.
Exactly. The whitelist was a big one for traders and company controllers. What’s cool is that they set up essentially like a handful of addresses. Unfortunately, exchanges, most of them reuse addresses to deposit. you just lock those in. And then you can also lock in a few addresses for your vaults. So you’re essentially capable of going back and forth between the exchange and your operational device. So you don’t have to leave funds on the exchange.
Stephan Livera (04:05)
Yeah.
NVK (04:17)
And you’re also capable of going from the operational device back to your deep vault that you don’t have access to, you can just deposit to. And that’s a big win. Big, big win. Because a lot of people, especially traders with a bit more volume, they don’t take the funds off the exchange because then they have to go unearth their deep vaults from some mountain somewhere.
right, ⁓ in order to go back to the exchange. So now they can essentially like go back and forth between the three, ⁓ substantially easier and safer really.
Stephan Livera (04:53)
Yeah, I think a lot of this comes down to making it feasible for more people to do self custody, right? Because as many of us know in this space, there’s a lot of custodial use, right? And of course, we’re trying to be honest about that. But at the same time, want more people to self custody, obviously, you’re building tools for that. Obviously, I’m encouraging people to self custody where they can. I’m curious to get your perspective on this. Why is it that so many companies don’t want to self custody? Do you think it is a…
NVK (05:05)
Yeah, absolutely.
Stephan Livera (05:19)
technical knowledge thing is a legal and regulatory hurdle thing. Is it just kind of confidence or comfort with self custody? Why in your mind are there a lot of people going for these kinds of, or is it just like the convenience factor? Like is that just, is it as simple as that?
NVK (05:33)
I think,
you know, like there’s many different profiles here, right? So like I think for, you know, individuals is fairly reasonable and people do it. I think, you know, for individuals we see way less use of custodians. I think the challenge is when you have a multi-people company, right? So, you know, again, it’s like how do you practically deploy
controlling rules among a small organization, right? Let’s say you have a mid-sized business, you you’re doing your 10 to 100 million dollars a year in revenue, you know, maybe like, you know, you’re making like, you know, 10 to 20 % of your revenue in BTC. Now, the problem for you is like, okay, great. So like, you know, I have my accountant, I have my controller, you know, the people that can do wire transfers and stuff, that part of the office, right?
How can I let them send and receive BTC without being a risk of them stealing it or them just being conned and robbed, right? And I think that’s one of the biggest practical issues with businesses doing self custody. And I think we solve a lot of that with some of our features. I think the next part is also like accounting and tax, right? So the tax.
Burden on BTC is complicated in most countries most Western countries You have to you know, you essentially have to run a weighted average cost for BTC on how you calculate your cap gains Because it’s not like consider currency and there is no Dementus either right? So, you know essentially like every time you you know, you for example you send money from your accounting So from your checkout system, so big to BTC from your accounting system
Stephan Livera (07:09)
Yeah, gotcha.
NVK (07:23)
Sorry, from your checking system, which is like your shopping cart to your vault, you need to, for example, make sure that that is very defined as just an intra-account transaction so you don’t get taxed on that. But then every time you sell BTC, you have to calculate that versus all your shopping cart intake. Exactly, exactly. Yes. Exactly.
Stephan Livera (07:39)
Right. And then again, you’re tracking basis and going, okay, when did I acquire this coin? What is the price I sold or spent it? What’s the difference? What’s the capital gains on that? And you know,
all this kind of complication and maybe I guess the other factor there is maybe the accounting software. Now, yes, there is some accounting software in the space where people are kind of like downloading a CSV and importing it into the accounting software. But I guess what you’re talking about there is there’s still some operational difficulty with actually doing that, right?
NVK (08:07)
Yes, it’s not simple. The accounting software is still like, you know, to be blunt shit. ⁓ know, even QuickBooks Online supports Bitcoin, but like, once you turn on Forex support ⁓ on QuickBooks Online, you can’t really go back. So you can’t turn it off. It becomes messy accounting. And now you have to have bookkeepers that are used to the multi Forex version.
of QuickBooks, for example, which reduces the pool of people available to work, know, like substantially, you know, you need your accountants to be used to it. It’s not, it’s not that simple. So, you know, it does make it harder. And another part too, is that like most mid-sized to slightly bigger businesses have very custom accounting software too. You know, they may use QuickBooks or Xero or some accounting software like that for the final.
sort of ⁓ a fiscal year, sorry the word just escaped me. But anyways, their financials might be using some of that software, normally the shopping carts and all the collection systems are very custom. So there’s a lot of glue in accounting, right? It’s very common for businesses to build their own software ⁓ or at least their own glue to support their own specific needs.
⁓ And yeah, it’s just tricky, but like I think we’re getting there like, know block is supporting it and they support a lot of small businesses So that should be easier
Stephan Livera (09:43)
Yeah, and you’ve got tools
like ZapRite as an example to make it easy. I know that’s quite popular for people now to take payment on Bitcoin.
NVK (09:47)
Zaprite is great.
Do they do ⁓
whack? I don’t know.
Stephan Livera (09:55)
⁓ weighted average, I don’t know. I don’t know if they have that. It might just be more like a CSV download thing, yeah.
NVK (09:56)
Do they? Yeah, yeah. We’ll ask Will. Yeah, it’s great.
Their shopping cart is great. We do use it for bitcointreasuries.net for example. And, you know, I think the tools are gonna get there. It takes time, right? ⁓ But I think we will all get there and, you know, hopefully we live in a day where there’s no taxes anymore on this shit.
Stephan Livera (10:15)
Yeah, okay. Now, to be clear, we’ve been, of course, we’re, you know, against taxes here, but, you know, that’s the word we’re in today. But I guess the
other point to get into on companies is what we were talking about there was a lot of just kind of dealing with, let’s say, the transactional side of things. But what about just for those hodling, you know, just like literally treasury companies who just have a treasury, right? They’re not doing that many like in and out transactions. They’re just…
you know, mostly just hodling. Why aren’t those guys at least doing self custody? Is it just because of again, comfort factor, non-technical, non-tech savvy, regulatory? What do you see there?
NVK (10:53)
So when
it comes to securities, there is essentially it’s all CYA, right? Like cover your ass. Like you have to essentially follow best practices accepted by the regulators, right? ⁓ And when you have a new space, everybody’s a little coy to try to do anything different because you can get into some serious trouble, right? So it’s understandable that they’re sort of like they’re taking their time. ⁓ Now there is a few rules, for example, you know, like
Stephan Livera (11:02)
Right.
NVK (11:23)
It’s very difficult for you as a securities company to not use say a qualified custodian for example. And so that reduces the pool of places and solutions you can use. If you’re going to do it internally, it gets tricky. You have to do a lot of things and you also have to own the technology to stack. And most companies don’t want to do that. So I think we’re getting there. think for example companies like Anchor Watch, ⁓
Stephan Livera (11:30)
Right.
NVK (11:53)
very well used solutions for ⁓ this sort of companies. ⁓
Stephan Livera (12:00)
Right. Because then they can have
insurance and some form of, you know, mini scripts style custody stuff. Yeah.
NVK (12:04)
Exactly, like you know, it’s if they become
a qualified custodian and they have insurance like, you know, like it’s a double whammy there, right? Like you’re very good ⁓ But even the insurance is unnecessary. You just need like a very good technical solution, which they have right to the decaying multi-sig thing and the mini script stuff that they have Plus being a qualified custodian that that suffices right? And then on top of that, you might find customers that want to pay for that insurance
premiums and sort of like get an extra bit of comfort there. ⁓ Instead of having to use say Coinbase, Fidelity or I forgot the name of the other one. There is one more that’s a big one. Anchorage, Anchorage. Yes. Exactly. Exactly.
Stephan Livera (12:45)
BitGo, Anchorage, ⁓ Copper, Bact, Bact, and Nightig. I don’t know, these are some of the big custodians, I guess. And I guess
that’s the thing, right? I mean, to your point, there’s not that many of these kind of, quote unquote, tier one or whatever, top tier, big pro level custodians. You can pretty much name them on one or two hands, right? In terms of the US ones. yeah, okay, there’s a few outside the US, but yeah.
NVK (13:09)
This is all new, right? mean, like,
you know, just think about it this way, like gold had 5,000 years, right? And, you know, fiat had at least 100, right? So like, depending on how you want to look at it, modern fiat versus slightly older fiat, right? ⁓ So, you know, it takes time and I think everybody is just sort of like, you know, everybody wants everything yesterday. And that’s not like how like big money has a lot more inertia, right?
Stephan Livera (13:21)
Yeah.
NVK (13:38)
because nobody wants to lose the money. So it just takes time. But we’re getting there. I mean, we’re going there.
Stephan Livera (13:46)
Yeah, it’s interesting. And I think it’s a fair point that maybe some of these like the top end of town, like the big, big Bitcoin treasury companies who have massive stacks, they probably have legal and regulatory kind of just requirements that are just not going to allow them to self custody. But I and the maybe one challenge now is if you look at this is kind of a concern people mentioned now is like look at
how many of the big ETFs are just using Coinbase custody, right? And again, I think to your point, it’s like a cover your ass thing, right? It’s a CYA thing. They probably all went for Coinbase custody because I think one of them, you know, they were like cribbing the notes off like the BlackRock one and being like, okay, well, BlackRock got theirs approved. We better go Coinbase custody.
NVK (14:22)
It’s just like, listen, you know,
if you’re going to go public with a Bitcoin treasury company, you know, there is like 50 checkboxes, right? I mean, like, do you want to make every checkbox a new thing for you to research, compliance and all the bullshit? No, like, you’re going to try to make them as straightforward as possible by, you know, just copying whoever is out there already. And then maybe you change those things, right? Like, it makes complete sense as much as we
Stephan Livera (14:28)
Yeah, or an ETF, yeah.
Yeah.
NVK (14:51)
don’t like people to go in the same spot. That’s how things go at first.
Stephan Livera (14:53)
Yeah.
Do you see it decentralizing out over time that maybe, maybe not all the ETFs or whatever, nine of the 11 or whatever, like a high percent of the ETFs are using Coinbase custody. And probably a lot of the big, contractual companies, you know, they might be using Coinbase custody, you know, how does that decentralize out?
NVK (15:11)
I think that
would change because I don’t think anybody wants systematic risk. You don’t want one critical path in this. It could be a disaster. So I think ⁓ an effort to de-risk ⁓ each, like the pile, let’s put it this way,
Stephan Livera (15:18)
Yeah.
Yeah.
NVK (15:38)
maybe put them in different locations. We’ll be underway soon. I don’t think anybody wants to be in a single spot. And I think ⁓ right now we have like 300 treasury companies, plus another 50 ETFs, right? ⁓ I think ⁓ we’re gonna get to probably 1,000 by the end of the year. It would be my…
Stephan Livera (15:47)
Yeah.
Damn, that’s fast,
NVK (16:06)
Yeah,
Stephan Livera (16:06)
yeah.
NVK (16:07)
it’s very likely we get to a thousand. Well, that’s if the price goes up, if the price keeps on going up. You know, I’d say we get to at least 500 by the end of the year, depending on how the market goes. Nobody wants to launch on a down market. Right. So I think you’re going to start seeing companies having to find a differentiator.
Stephan Livera (16:12)
Hahaha
Yeah.
NVK (16:32)
Right? otherwise it’s just the same and people are just going to buy the top ones and the bottom ones. ⁓ So, know, as, as, you know, maybe one differentiator is like, Hey, you know, we use anchor watch it is insured. You know, like some people find value on that.
Stephan Livera (16:46)
So they’re gonna try to set
people at ease by saying hey we’ve got a better custody set up we’ve got a better insurance set up or we’re using better technology etc
NVK (16:52)
Exactly. Exactly.
It’s like people have to have marketing points, right? Even if they’re just, you know, small differences, they are differences and people have different profiles on how they invest their money in these companies.
Stephan Livera (17:06)
Yeah, well, let’s talk about this now because I know you are the founder of Bitcoin Treasuries.net. I know you’ve got Rizzo. I think Rizzo is president there. I know he’s working on that project as well.
NVK (17:16)
Yeah, he joins
us to be the lead there.
Stephan Livera (17:20)
Gotcha. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about this. Now, I remember you started this years ago and I remember we were talking probably even on the podcast. We were saying, or at least you were telling me the idea was, hey, if you got the leaderboard, a bunch of these people stacking coins will want to like fight each other to be number one or to kind of rise on the ladder. And now, you know, a few years on in 2025, we’re actually seeing this now.
NVK (17:41)
Do you remember the meme? It’s like how it started and how it’s going on Twitter. You have two photos. We started, I think, with two companies. I think it was…
Stephan Livera (17:46)
Right. Yeah, yeah.
Right, was like MicroStrategy
and Tesla back then.
NVK (17:53)
I think Block was even before them with the pile. But I think we had MicroStrategy first. Anyway, can’t remember. It was like two, three companies. That’s it. Right? And now we have, you know, like a thousand companies there, like differing on what their setup is. ⁓ And, you know, it’s always been like, I mean, maybe it’s controversial to some of the new people in Bitcoin, but like, you know, I think even like since the…
Stephan Livera (17:56)
true. That is true. Yeah.
NVK (18:22)
the Bitcoin talk days, like it’s always been the understanding that it’s a matter of time before we find the back door into the financial system, right? The fiat system. And, you know, what is the best back door for BTC to go in? It’s through the regulated financial markets, right? Like, you know, if you create the best money that humanity has ever had, like it’s obvious that people who are going to like have to store value are going to use it.
And where are the biggest piles of money? They’re the financial markets, right? So, as we start to permeate our little mycelium legs into everything, being a huge part of the financial, the TradFi markets, it’s part of the story. It was just a matter of time, really.
Stephan Livera (18:56)
Yeah, equities, debt, property, you know.
Yeah, and I think it’s interesting that it took, I mean, some of us could say, look, it’s kind of surprising that it took so long for more people to actually try and copy Michael Saylor, right?
NVK (19:25)
We took nothing, man. Sixteen years? Sixteen years
is nothing. Like in money terms, like, dude, like, it’s crazy. Like, tech companies took longer, you know, to exist in the financial markets, right? Like, the pure sort of like SaaS company sort of thing, right? Like, you think about it, like, you know, we’re going to be very soon at a point where, you know, we’re going to have more…
If maybe we really are, we’re going to have more pubcos holding BTC than hold gold. Like actual gold, not some gold stock, right? ⁓ We might already be there. I don’t know what those numbers are, I have never researched that, but it wouldn’t surprise me that we would not already be there.
Stephan Livera (20:16)
Yeah, that’s an interesting point. don’t
actually know. I’d have to look it up. But it is also kind of fascinating just that, you know, the way it is, like as I look at the dashboard now, look at the top, you know, obviously MSTR, the 800 pound gorilla in the room or whatever, they’ve got 640,000 coins. The next is Mara with 52,000 or 52,850. You’ve got 21 at 43,000, MetaPlanet about 30,000, BSTR about 30,000. you know, it’s just like a huge drop off, right? Because, you know,
What’s your take on this? Do you think it’s gonna be just kind of a winner takes all, a winner takes most kind of scenario here? Or do you see it as like there’s a market for smaller guys to come and rise up?
NVK (20:52)
So I think, you know.
It’s like capital likes aggregation, Like it tends towards monopolies and aggregation. It’s just how capital works, right? Because liquidity begets liquidity. So I think what we’re gonna have is we’re gonna have a healthy sort of like top 20 companies, right? And these guys are gonna have the lion’s share of it. And then they’re gonna have the rest. And the rest is gonna be like, the middle is gonna get a bit squeezed. ⁓
because people are going to either want security by having the big ones or like instability, right? Or they’re going to want the very little ones to penny stock and try to find the next. Exactly. And I think that’s how people are going to probably split their portfolios. It’s going to be the top and the bottom. ⁓ So, I guess like the opportunity right now for the middle ones is to one, find financial markets that are different than the big ones have.
Stephan Livera (21:36)
Right, because they want the high risk high reward sort of thing. Yeah.
NVK (21:55)
So, know, go find other countries like Orange in Brazil or, you know, like go find financial markets that are untapped ⁓ and try to build like something that is more compatible with that specific market. I have an advantage there. ⁓
Stephan Livera (22:08)
Yeah. So do you agree then with the
idea that it’s kind of like, there’ll be a few winners per jurisdiction then? Is that kind of how you’re seeing it? Yeah.
NVK (22:16)
Yes, absolutely. Yes.
Yes. But I think people are going to get clever, right? I think you’re going to have companies that are going to be very good at one thing, even though they may not have the biggest market cap. They might be very good at some specific financialization that makes sense for the investor. You know, maybe something like exactly right? maybe, I don’t know, maybe strive comes up with some weird
Stephan Livera (22:38)
Right, whether it’s alpha generation strategies or some technique, yeah.
NVK (22:45)
you know, like thing that just works for the people looking for that specific thing, right? And maybe they’re not as big as micro strategy, but maybe they solve that problem, right?
Stephan Livera (22:54)
Gotcha, yeah. And I mean, as we spoke about mergers and acquisitions, they just bought Semla, right? So that’s an example, like we’ve already seen ⁓ &A in this space. that’s kind of early. To me, that feels like, wow, I wasn’t expecting that to happen until, you know, a bit later, maybe another year or two down the track.
NVK (23:00)
There you go.
⁓ I mean, it makes
complete sense. Why not buy another stack of BTC with stock? Yeah, exactly. think their deal was probably mostly stock. I don’t know. I haven’t looked. But I imagine it would have been. Exactly. So either direct equity or some form of stock compensation. So you don’t have to go borrow money. You print more shares and you require another pile of BTC.
Stephan Livera (23:15)
Yeah, yeah, I mean, it’s a creative, right? So.
Yeah, I think it was equity, but yeah.
NVK (23:38)
That’s pretty sound strategy, right? Especially this early that you can get away with it. ⁓
Stephan Livera (23:44)
Yeah,
and I guess it seems like the game now, as I understand it, and of course the game is changing, so maybe the answer is different in a few months time, but it seems like the game now is to sort of get to the preferred shares phase. So MSTR is obviously already there, MetaPlanet has spoken about that, but maybe the others are like seeing it as, look, that’s the end game, and in order to be able to do preferred shares, we need to get to a certain size and scale. And so maybe the game is to get to that size.
NVK (24:08)
Yeah, you know,
I think the thing is like because microstrategy is like pushing a bunch of new things and see what sticks, I think everybody else is going to try to copy a bit. But like, I think very soon we’re going to start seeing things where it’s like, you know, like, no, we’re going to only do common, you know, that’s going to be our thing, you know, and then somebody else going to do something else. And because, you know, like you can’t I mean, God knows, maybe like, you know, in a certain size, you can do more things.
Stephan Livera (24:26)
Right.
NVK (24:37)
But like generally speaking, you can only do so many things, right? And you want to be the best at that one thing. And again, like to give returns to shareholders, you don’t have to be the biggest one. Right? So, I don’t know. It’s hard to know. Like this is all so new. mean, like you have never been able to do any of shit before because you never had a asset, an underlying asset that has no counterparty risk.
Stephan Livera (25:07)
Yeah, I mean, that’s the game, right? The game is to accumulate this thing. ⁓ And I think there have been a lot of questions and challenges thrown, especially now that treasury companies are in a bit of a lull. ⁓ There are some people saying, you know, there’s maybe a few good, like the view of other people in the space is they would say, well, maybe there’s a room for a few. And then there’s just a lot of trash out there ⁓ in terms of the pure plays and that you should have a business that’s earning Bitcoin, not using financial techniques.
NVK (25:07)
right like ⁓
Stephan Livera (25:37)
Where are you on that question? Like, do you see it like there is room? How much room is there for let’s say, financial engineering, Bitcoin treasury companies or pure plays? Yeah.
NVK (25:46)
⁓ it’s endless. I mean,
it’s like endless, know, completely endless. Like people will come up. I think we still have not seen the things that are possible, you know, like at all. We haven’t even thought of them yet. ⁓ We need to, like we need a lot of time in the market with the things that we can kind of like immediately see and play with it. Right. Like I don’t think we have even gotten close to what’s possible.
Again, it’s like you have an asset that has no counterparty risk. Once the market understands the value of that, things really change. Because right now, everything that they do with the dereligning asset has to sort of follow securities law based on assets that have counterparty risk.
Stephan Livera (26:13)
Interesting, yeah.
NVK (26:33)
Right? So like, it’s a tricky thing. It’s just we haven’t crossed a Like, we haven’t crossed a chasm yet. We’re like, you need another five, 10 years in the market, right? For regulators to really wrap their heads around what’s going on, for us to have more diversity in qualified custodians, for us to like, you know, start coming up with interesting technical solutions for these companies to move funds between them as well. I think, I think
We just, we’re just so.
Stephan Livera (27:05)
Yeah, interesting. So you see it like there is actually a lot of potential for these things, but it’s obviously it’s going to be a wild ride. None of us can predict the pathway. ⁓ But I guess in your view, are you fundamentally bullish on these things? ⁓ And I guess maybe the question some Bitcoiners would want to ask is there’s one camp of Bitcoiners who see it like, you know, it’s anti the cypherpunk ethos. Why are you talking about treasury companies when you should be, you know, only using self custody and peer to peer? ⁓
Do you see it as, well, let me put it this way. There’s some people who are kind of against treasury companies. There’s some people in the middle who are sort of like just tall. Right.
NVK (27:39)
I think it’s idiotic. Yeah, I think it’s idiotic to be against anything.
know, Bitcoin demand is Bitcoin demand, right? Like, use it however you want. The whole point of Bitcoin is it’s own damn business, right? So, you know, like demand is demand. Like, I don’t care where the demand comes for Bitcoin. And the more demand we have, the bigger the asset gets, the more protected we are as individual holders, right?
So, know, just think of like this pub calls as moat, right? Like, you know, your government no longer can fuck with your asset because if they fuck with your asset, now they trash the market and now the teachers pensions don’t work. Right. So, so like they literally can’t break BTC anymore of regulation. Right. Because it would be a huge problem. Exactly. You want to be. That’s right. Like, it’s like it’s like electricity. Right. Like if you.
Stephan Livera (28:27)
Right, because it’s become so ingrained over time as it gets more ingrained into the system.
NVK (28:35)
You want more power lines everywhere. You want a more connected grid. Because then you’re safer. If one spot breaks, you still get power delivery. ⁓ Nobody’s going to make electricity illegal now in your area anymore just because some people don’t like it. Exactly. It’s just integrated into everything. Yes.
Stephan Livera (28:50)
Yeah.
Right, because it’s simply too useful. Too many people’s lives depend on this thing. Like it would just be foolish to kind of, you know, do
that. Now the concern could be, okay, fine, NVK, ⁓ numbers going to go up, but they’re going to corrupt this thing that it’s going to create this kind of KYC compliance nightmare. There’s going to be kind of everything has to be KYC regulated and you know, there’s no, maybe they make moves against self custody or peer to peer.
What would you say to that? Do you think that’s a real thing or not really, or it’s a risk but not that high?
NVK (29:28)
I mean, I think the battle for freedom of transaction, freedom of expression will never end. it’s like, like nobody has this conversation about free speech, right? Like, oh, it’s like, oh no, we shouldn’t have big newspapers versus small newspapers. Like nobody’s arguing about that. It’s like, the battle really is, like, can you have freedom of expression and freedom of transaction or not? Right? So I think like the point is you want more monetized actors.
having this asset so it’s in their interest to make the asset fungible.
Stephan Livera (30:00)
Yeah, I think that’s mostly true, but I could imagine an Odell or someone who might say, hey, look, some of these treasury companies, they might have obviously, NGU aligned as incentive, but they may not care as much about the freedom side of things. They may want the number to go up, but they may not care about your freedom to transact.
NVK (30:14)
No, they don’t. Yes.
Yeah, that’s a fair point. But the thing is, like, them creating demand and making the number go up, it makes everybody who wants freedom more rich. the people, you know, reality is like, you can’t fight regulation, you can’t fight the state being poor.
Stephan Livera (30:32)
Yeah, and I think that’s maybe…
NVK (30:32)
What are you going to do? Go
scream on the streets? protests don’t work. Like, what are you going to go protest? Like, doesn’t, you know, it’s idiotic. you know, the way you change things is by, you know, buying the government, right? Like, and in order to buy the government, you have to have money. Like, exactly. That’s, we need to escape velocity, right? We need economic escape velocity from state actors, right? Because when the individuals, like, have a lot of economic power, they have influence over governments, right?
Stephan Livera (30:36)
Yeah.
We gotta get NGU, we gotta get the Bitcoin people wealthier.
NVK (31:02)
and they will make sure that their asset is protected in the way that they prefer. ⁓
Stephan Livera (31:08)
Yeah, and I mean, arguably with
the Trump phenomenon, at least partially the crypto industry now, yeah, Bitcoin and maybe some shitcoin people, they put in some money, they supported Trump and they kind of, arguably, you could say they tried to orange pill the Trump family and now the Trump family is kind of on board. Now, maybe there’s some downside to that too. Yeah. Yeah.
NVK (31:24)
Yeah, you need them to have the same bags. See, this
is the thing. You want everybody to have the same bags as you, right? Because they don’t mess with the bags. Like, if the politicians are earning in BTC, they want freedom to transact their, you know, corrupt bribes or whatever, Exactly, like it’s in everybody’s interest to transact the stuff, right?
Stephan Livera (31:39)
They’re coins, yeah.
NVK (31:45)
⁓ You want that? I think like there’s a lot of Bitcoiners that like remind me a little bit of like Canadian firearms regulation. It’s like Canadian firearms owners for decades, they sort of like always had this approach of like, you know, if you just don’t look the bully in the eye, right? Like they don’t mess with your stuff. But it just keeps on getting eroded, right? Because, you know, they just sort of like, you know, we’re just going to stay quiet. Hopefully there’s no shooting and nobody comes after the guns, right?
But now we’re in a point in Canada where it’s like they’re just taking everything. the reality is like you have to capitalize yourself, you have to build lobby, you have to build a lot of mass, you have to be an unfuckable system. And then they can’t do anything about it because you own them. That’s how it works.
Stephan Livera (32:27)
Right. Yeah.
NVK (32:35)
People have this sort of like, you know, romantic view of democracy from like a hundred years ago, right? And then that’s not the reality It’s just like every single system gets gained and whoever has access to more capital and more power gets to set the rules, right? And and I think that we have to get there, you know We have to to try to tame government from the pocket not from the gun, right?
Stephan Livera (32:58)
Interesting. Yeah. And so in a way, I’ve heard different ways of explaining this idea. But one idea is that a lot of early Bitcoiners, because they’ve become wealthy, they’ve become more powerful. And so it’s kind of like the elites in society, greater percentage of them are Bitcoiners. And then maybe some of the current existing fiat elites, they’ve also kind of come in because now they want to hold Bitcoin too. So I guess what happens to society as more of the quote unquote elites have some Bitcoin and what kind of
shift in society will that create?
NVK (33:30)
Yeah, mean like, you know, societies like things literally ever have been run by a former and other of aristocracy, right? Like, and that’s always the people who have access to the most amount of wealth. It’s never going to change. No, that’s it. Like, that’s how it works, right? Like, you can give the plebes the vote. That’s how, you know, people like to describe it. But like, it doesn’t really do anything, right? Vote harder, right?
Stephan Livera (33:44)
Yeah, like it or not, that seems to be,
NVK (33:58)
And nobody wants chaos, nobody wants war. mean, sure, there’s a few people who win from that here and there, but nobody wants war in their own backyard, right? Like that’s universal. Even the people who make all their money from military industrial complex, they don’t want war in their house, like in their neighborhood. Exactly, like it’s like war, but not here, right? So, you know…
Stephan Livera (34:17)
Right, they don’t want to send their sons and daughters away to war, right?
NVK (34:27)
It’s no different really than how it plays out with Bitcoin. It’s like, want freedom for my thing here. And we’re just sort of like, extrapolating that to an asset that’s international and it cannot be de-internationalized, like Gold wants. You can no longer… No, no, go ahead.
Stephan Livera (34:45)
Yeah, let’s talk a little bit about Yeah, go on.
Yeah, I was just gonna ask a little bit about I think there’s been some shifting attitudes on debt also, right? Because part of this whole Bitcoin treasury play, it seems to me, now, I guess there’s different interpretations here. But I think one interpretation is, it’s the Liverage embedded into these treasury companies that allows them to outperform Bitcoin, right? Because now, to be clear, this is not like going 50x long, it’s more like
20 % Liverage. So let’s say 1.2x, maybe 1.3x or some of these companies are more like 1.1x and that debt is you know, because they’re getting cheap finance, Let’s say, yeah, right? Yeah.
NVK (35:27)
Well, it’s fiat priced, right? Like it’s priced in dollars, right? So like, you know,
the Bitcoin hurdle rate is like, whatever, 20, 30 % a year. And fiat is, you know, like, like the opposite of that. ⁓
Stephan Livera (35:39)
Yeah, if people can borrow at
10 % or less, and I guess some of that can be applied at the individual level. It’s just that you and I as individuals, we can’t get the same terms that a big public company can. And so maybe, you know, yeah.
NVK (35:50)
I mean, people did, you know, like 10 years ago,
a lot of people took mortgages on their houses and bought them to BTC, right? Like it…
Stephan Livera (35:56)
Well, that’s on the fiat
side. Yeah, so I mean, and the mortgages are fiat subsidized, right? Like fiat mortgages, government subsidized. Yeah.
NVK (36:01)
Exactly. But like it’s no different in the financial
markets, right? It’s just that like you don’t need to mortgage your house. If you’re a financial company, you can essentially mortgage your shares, right? Like you can overly like being very simplistic here. But like that’s the idea is that like you have assets that you can either borrow against your BTC, which is the collateral there, but you can borrow against, you know, a form of shares, right? Like you can you can borrow against different things that financial systems understand better. And that’s why they can get better pricing.
Stephan Livera (36:14)
Mm.
NVK (36:30)
on that death.
Stephan Livera (36:31)
Yeah, so I think what we’re seeing over time is the interest rates for this Bitcoin collateralized side of things come down a little bit over time as more of the market understands what this is. I think that’s something we’ve noticed. ⁓ And, of course, like you said, people want to get in and find the ways to get the cheap fiat and put it into Bitcoin. And that’s obviously that’s this whole Treasury Company play like that. That’s at least part of the story. It’s not the whole story, but it’s a big part of the story, isn’t it?
NVK (36:58)
Yes, and I think things are going to switch up a little bit. Once like you have tried five banks, know, like you got your, you know, like really like corner bank, right? Like I’m not talking about, you know, JP Morgan, it’s hard for like an average person to open an account and I’m talking about like really the corner, you know, Bank of America, the corner TD Bank, right? Like having a product where, you know, like the
they let you borrow against your BTC, for example, the same way that they let you borrow against your shares. ⁓ I think the market for Bitcoin collateralized loans is going to greatly improve, right? Because there’s going to be a lot more competition. And that’s going to be true also versus the Bitcoin tragedy companies, right? So retail is going to go and say, hey, I can go buy MicroStrategy or I can just buy Bitcoin and borrow myself.
It’s going to change the dynamic a bit. ⁓ And that’s also going to bring down the interest rate for say like London, right? Like where, right now if they want to borrow money to re-land, it’s a certain cost. But if the banks are used to people borrowing SBC, they might lend to London at a cheaper price, or they might just buy London.
Stephan Livera (38:22)
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. I think there’s gonna be a lot of interest in this lending stuff and it has come up and I understand if for some people in the Bitcoin world that’s controversial or they see that as like, have more of a moral or religious or philosophical objection to debt just in general. ⁓ But ultimately, there’ll be a lot of people who see this, yeah.
NVK (38:39)
Nobody cares. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. It’s
like it’s none of your business what people do with their money. Nobody cares.
Stephan Livera (38:51)
Yeah, I’m not personally opposed to using debt. But yeah, certainly it’ll be interesting to see that kind of… Because there’ll be people who are kind of commenting on that, but then they’ll say, well, look, hey, you can’t stop me, right? Because there’ll be someone else who’s saying, like on the other side of that, there’ll be someone who’s saying, yeah, I am going to use debt and try to stop me, you know? Yeah.
NVK (38:53)
No, I know, I know.
I think there’s a lot of Twitter tigers too, right? It’s like,
it’s just a lot of people seeing all kinds of shit on Twitter, but then at the end of the day, they’re like, you know, totally normal life, economically speaking on, you know, in private. ⁓ You know, I don’t think you should take your financial advice from Twitter in general. Just don’t take any advice from Twitter. Exactly. That’s the only advice. Yes. It is. And that’s the cool thing too, is that like,
Stephan Livera (39:27)
Ha
Unless it’s by Bitcoin, you know, that’s the only, that’s really the safest thing.
NVK (39:38)
know, we can talk about all this financialization and all this angles and all this shit, but at the end of the day, you can just like, you know, go full caveman, you know, like and buy a bunch of BTC, put in your cold card and like go live your life and not give a fuck. You know, at the end of the day, it’s that that’s the promise, right? It’s like people use it however they want. And, you know, honestly, that is the best way to use it.
Stephan Livera (40:01)
Yeah. I think the other interesting thing, I’m curious if you have any take on, I guess, mindset shifts, right? Because Bitcoin has gone up quite a lot, right? As we speak, it’s, $118,000 per BTC. ⁓ And yet there’s like a bunch of OGs who maybe aren’t as public on Twitter or online, and they’re just kind of, you know, some of them are maybe a bit disillusioned, or maybe they’re just kind of
checked out a little bit, even though they’re still huddling most of the coins. ⁓ What are you seeing there in terms of mindset shifts there? Are ⁓ people annoyed with what’s going on or even all these knots and core stuff? What are you seeing and hearing?
NVK (40:48)
No change. I don’t know a single OG that’s not just like bullish living their own best lives Like, you know, I think I think most of the noise is coming from recent sort of entrance into Bitcoin So it’s like their first sort of like it’s the first cycle or second cycle You know, yeah, but like I don’t I don’t know anybody who’s who’s like an old an od who’s not just like
Stephan Livera (41:03)
It’s their first or second go around. Yeah, not the third or fourth.
NVK (41:15)
Complete just like, yeah, this is great. Things are working according to plan. Let’s just live our lives and things are going to keep on progressing. I think a lot of the sort of like this bearish sentiment is just coming from people feeling the price not going up.
Stephan Livera (41:31)
Yeah, and I think that’s something where I think people maybe have a mismatched expectation, right? Because there are people who and okay, maybe some of these people they came in in like very early years So they’re used to let’s say the volatility of the 2013 cycle or the 2017 cycle But here we are to 2025, you know, it’s just not as volatile And it’s okay. Yeah, it’s growing but it’s not growing as fast as it was back in those days and maybe for them they’re a bit ⁓ Maybe they’re just not excited by that. Maybe that’s not enough for them
NVK (41:50)
Yeah.
I think
the main thing is, I think a lot of people talk a big game about the freedom and all the shit on Bitcoin, but at the end of the day they’re all just looking for a way to get rich quick. And Bitcoin is not that. There’s probably a reason why you weren’t there earlier is because it was very messy and was like, people saw their net worth go down 10x. Like go down 10x.
Bitcoin went down from like $133 to like what was it $10, $12.
Stephan Livera (42:34)
Yeah, there were some early big drops like I wasn’t around before my time but I think there was a drop from 32 to like $2. There was a drop from like 260 to like 50 from like 1200 down to like 150, 20,000 down to like 3000, 69,000 down to 15,000, you know? Yeah.
NVK (42:36)
Yeah, there were many. were many. Yeah, like, dude, exactly. And then you’re thinking, and everybody was poor back then. And everybody was
poor back then, right? It’s not like it was like bunch of people who were just using their side play money. It’s like, you know, people put in their mortgages into that. So it’s like…
It’s just you know like that’s that’s the ride you know like if you want to be early in an asset You know it’s gonna take a lot of pain like instead of focusing on on the price in the stuff like go go go generate value and go create things and you know like Go go work on what you’re good at and then buy more Bitcoin. You know like that’s it. Just like go go do your thing It’s ⁓ I think again. It’s like this very sentiment really is just because of the price action like
You know, price goes up, everybody gets euphoric, everybody’s happy again. It really is just a product of, you know, ⁓ a product of the price. Everybody cares about the price.
Stephan Livera (43:39)
Yeah.
And I think people maybe are just a bit upset that it hasn’t gone up as much as they would have hoped. Right. And like you said, that’s like you were saying, I think that’s really that’s what it is for some of these people. ⁓ I want to get your take on the whole Knott’s and Call theme, because obviously there’s a whole drama about this now. ⁓ It’s kind of like you can’t avoid it. I ⁓ know you have maybe kind of you have issues on you kind of have issues both with the Call people and with the Knott’s people. ⁓ So maybe you’re like in the third camp.
Where are you at on this?
NVK (44:10)
I mean, first of all, doesn’t have camps. I don’t understand why people are playing team A versus team B. It’s just too reductionist. It’s even more idiotic than, yeah, ⁓ it’s just dumb. Yeah, I mean, like, there’s a multitude of things. I guess I’ll just be brief on this, like, not that my opinion matters anyways. ⁓ You know, like, it’s a necessary changes to core.
Stephan Livera (44:17)
Yeah.
NVK (44:37)
The reasons for it are very mediocre, it’s mediocrity everywhere. I the folks in probably don’t use Bitcoin. If they do, it’s some small lightning stuff. It’s very obvious. The client is not progressing in a way that really helps base layer achieve things that it needs to. We don’t even have an indexer on Core. Core doesn’t support BIP-39.
Core doesn’t even have authentication on RPC, while people are trying to make Rupert Goldberg machine sort of things with lightning and all their shit. So I think Core is sort of like misguided right now. But again, it’s completely voluntary. It’s fully, people work on whatever they want to work at. Like, who am I to say what the priority should be?
From my perspective, it’s just a lot of shit that’s completely low priority and nobody cares. And I think the market shows. It’s very obvious where the majority of the dev funding goes to, what people are doing. Most people can run old clients, so it doesn’t really matter. ⁓
And then I mean like, know, I always liked the idea of having knots like around it was like a nice to have a little fork of Bitcoin that sort of like is like sort of follows. But you know, again, the guys wouldn’t like full retard, you know, like it’s, you know, like there’s a lot of good people there. There’s good people on both sides. Everybody’s good. Like, like I don’t like I don’t want scribe malice to like most sides, just people are very passionate. And then people get into this team, team A versus team B, and then they get extra retarded against each other on Twitter.
And then it just keeps on snowballing into this shit show that it is now. I think once you bring up CSAM, you kind of lose the argument. It’s just like, OK, when you say, what about the children, that’s it. It’s like, really, guys? Do really have to go there? It just doesn’t look good from an outside perspective.
Stephan Livera (46:39)
Yeah, and so the fear mongering has been, from my perspective, just crazy, right? They’ve been saying stuff like, call 30 is the end of Bitcoin, Bitcoin is gonna die. And it’s just, I mean, it’s just crazy moral grandstanding and just like, FUD. I mean, it’s weird to me.
NVK (46:44)
It’s unnecessary.
No, it’s just you marginalize
yourself out. You really marginalize your own self when you go that far. ⁓ But again, it’s not that filters don’t work 100%, they work a bit. But there’s a lot of nuance in that.
And if you’re not willing to say that filters practically, technically don’t work, know what mean? It’s just like both sides just keep on being like completely extremes and we really didn’t get anywhere. And at the end of the day, none of the shit matters unless you have a fork. So I think people should put their money where their mouth for the money is, create a fork. And if people follow the fork, then great. If not, then you found
Stephan Livera (47:42)
Yeah, I mean, what would
the fork even be at this point, right? Like, how would they?
NVK (47:45)
Well, you could make
up return be a consensus rule. The size of the up return. mean, you can do whatever you want. Actually, Portland made an interesting proposal on the mailing list very, very early. Like, not like sort of worked through, but you know, I saw that Polstra commented on it. you know, so…
Stephan Livera (48:03)
Right, I think it was something like
restricting witness size or something like this.
NVK (48:07)
Yeah, there was some conversation on that. like, you have to be fought through and you don’t want to break things. it should be like, even if you’re on the other side, I think it’s in your interest to sort of like help the people who want to make a proposal to restrict these things, be a solid proposal and see where the market wants to go. I think it’s important. I really don’t think we should support so much non-monetary data on Bitcoin. I think it’s idiotic too.
⁓ It’s not good because first of all like you know when when Casey You know created his first ordinal stuff like he had a lot of respect for the size of the data going in and figuring out like what to do I Mean sure he stuck the dick butts in there and whatever but like he could have done worse ⁓
Stephan Livera (48:52)
Right, and I mean, was him that,
it was he that, you know, arguably this is like the analogy of the whole smart cow thing that he found a way to hack data into the witness onto the input side of the transaction. And then on the other side, people feel like, ⁓ that broke the data carrier size thing. And is it a bug? They fixed it with documentation. Other people saying, no, you know, and there’s like a big fight about that, right?
NVK (49:00)
Mm-hmm.
But it doesn’t
matter, that’s the point. Is it possible? Yes, people do it. I do like, I ask hackers out there, like Casey, they’re like, if you figure out how to do shit, you don’t necessarily need to do it. You know what mean? Because like bad guys don’t have a lot of imagination and you know, they’re not gonna figure it out. Nobody figured that out for this long.
Right? So, so like just just don’t do it. You know, like like it’s like when Todd created like LibreNode, like you don’t have to do it. You know, like just just don’t like, you know, you don’t have to like, you know, take a dump in the middle of the street just because you can and you want to prove to everybody that you can take a dump in the middle of the street like.
Stephan Livera (49:34)
Yeah, mean, yeah, I yeah, I mean, I would prefer, yeah.
Yeah.
NVK (49:54)
I don’t know, I feel like, seriously, everything right now is so unnecessary. Mostly because people have nothing else to do, I think. I don’t know, like, go build something, you know? Like, go, I don’t know, pick up surfing. You know, like, you don’t have to, like, do all this stupidity just because you can. But anyways, that’s my ⁓ irrelevant opinion.
Stephan Livera (49:57)
Yeah.
Gotcha. So any thought on implementations like should there be multiple implementations or is it a security risk to have that or you know know there’s that little Bitcoin kernel project where they’re trying to help separate out some of the consensus aspects of it. Where are you at there? Like do you see it as there should be multiple implementations? I mean of course I know there already are but do you think you know that’s a good thing?
NVK (50:42)
So yeah, think the
main problem right now is this. Right now, the main release implementation is managed on GitHub. GitHub has horrific moderation tools. I think the people who are maintaining and managing users, businesses, and stuff are very bad at that. Like really bad at that. It’s maddening bad at that. ⁓
And I think everybody needs to sort of take a step back and maybe reanalyze how they handle the non-community, let’s call it the industry. ⁓ Yeah, it’s just the mediocrity on how things have been handled. And I think people get mad at the other side, instead of just having a very stoic response, they would just go and kind of provoke back. There’s a lot of that.
You know and I get it. I like listen. I am the last person that could do that job I’d never be able to have that level of stoicism to sort of handle like the way that Vladimir used to handle things right I think we need to to sort of like have a deep Breath and try to move back to how things used to be handled. I think was better and and you know what like I think maybe we’re moving to a point now where
maybe like treating Bitcoin core consensus more like kernel and having different not different forks per se but different distributions might be helpful already kind of do there’s BTCD for for lightning there is there’s there’s a few other things I forget now but the point is live Bitcoin well yeah
Stephan Livera (52:25)
Yeah.
Yeah, like libbitcoin and rust bitcoin stuff and a things, yeah.
NVK (52:40)
So maybe that is a viable path so that, you know, technically is the same thing, but practically at least there is a distribution of preferences. I think that might be more helpful. know, ⁓ I mean, personally, I like my software to be a cathedral, but maybe Bitcoin, it’s time for Bitcoin to move into a bazaar. ⁓ You know, like I…
For example, I really dislike Linux, right? I like FreeBSD because it’s monolithic and there’s just a few guys, they handle it and they’re very authoritative on how they do things, but that doesn’t work for Bitcoin. ⁓ But the cool thing is if you have more distributions of Bitcoin, you can have distributions with more authoritative ways of handling things, right? And then you let the market sort sort out what makes the best sense.
And I like the idea of moving, you know, like a standardness things into consensus, but again, it’s like you don’t want a massive thing that’s working either. I don’t know, it’s just, there is no good answer as things are going to have to be experimented and it’s so early.
Stephan Livera (53:53)
Yeah, unfortunately not ⁓ any easy answers there, I think. I guess ⁓ closing things out, guess anything else on the CoinCut side you want to mention before we close things down?
NVK (54:08)
No, mean, again, it’s like on our Quankai side, it’s like sort of like heads down, sort of just trying to build the best self-custody tools, very cave mind mindset. It’s like, how can we make things that don’t break? How can we give you more visibility, make it easier, make it more secure, add more features? It’s kind of like the seed vault stuff. It’s like, how can we allow you to do everything you need or the key teleport stuff?
⁓ You know, how can I help you transact things being multinational person? ⁓ We’re trying to build the device for the sovereign individual, right? So, you know, and we do love the fact that people approach us with ideas and sort of like their personal sort of like issues trying to live in multiple countries, trying to do things that way. And if we can come up with technical solutions for it, like, you know, power to the people.
that they wanna sort of like live in the next sort of paradigm of financial freedom. ⁓ So that’s it on that side. Yeah, I mean, people know where to find me and you you can come scream at me after about my comments on Quar and things. Exactly, right? Exactly.
Stephan Livera (55:21)
About your opinions about lots of things, but yeah, I guess
that’s that’s where it’s at So yeah, I guess coin kite calm people can check it out and of course Bitcoin treasuries net for those people interested in the Bitcoin treasuries side of things I think it’s a cool dashboard. I check it out every now and then ⁓ and yeah, well I’ll we’ll leave it there and thanks for joining me. I’ll see you soon
NVK (55:46)
Thanks for having me, Livera. It was as nice as usual.