In this conversation, André Loja discusses the Free Madeira project, which aims to promote Bitcoin adoption through education and community engagement. He highlights the success of merchant adoption on the island, the impact of Bitcoin conferences, and the development of the Basalto Fund, which allows investors to gain residency in Portugal while investing in Bitcoin.

The conversation also touches on the future of Madeira as a hub for Bitcoin and related technologies, emphasizing the importance of community and collaboration.

Takeaways:

🔸Free Madeira is focused on Bitcoin education and adoption.

🔸The project has successfully onboarded numerous merchants accepting Bitcoin.

🔸Community engagement is key to sustaining Bitcoin adoption.

🔸Conferences have significantly raised awareness and interest in Madeira.

🔸Sovereign Engineering aims to foster open-source freedom tech projects.

🔸The Baselto Fund allows investment in Bitcoin while gaining residency in Portugal.

🔸Madeira offers a unique blend of autonomy and EU regulations.

🔸Quality of life in Madeira is high, attracting Bitcoiners and expats.

🔸The island’s infrastructure supports a growing Bitcoin community.

🔸Future plans include establishing a physical hub for Bitcoin projects. 

Timestamps:

(00:00) – Intro

(01:54) – What is Free Madeira? 

(08:11) – Has Bitcoin adoption attracted people to visit Madeira? 

(15:07) – The experience of earning & spending Bitcoin on the island  

(17:43) – What is Sovereign Engineering?

(24:08) – André’s business ventures in Madeira

(27:34) – Sponsors

(28:36) – HODL only or Spend & Replace Bitcoin?

(35:32) – What is the Basalto Fund?

(41:07) – Understanding Portugal’s Golden visa process

(46:14) – Basalto Fund – Fees and Performance 

(51:03) – How autonomous is Madeira?; Services and opportunities

(56:58) – Future plans and Community development

(1:00:37) – Closing thoughts 

Links: 

• https://x.com/andreloja 
• https://x.com/andreloja/status/1935061124719706410 
• https://x.com/FREEMadeiraOrg 
• https://sovereignengineering.io/ 
• https://x.com/BitcoinAtlantis 
• https://x.com/BasaltoFund 

Sponsor:

• CoinKite.com (code LIVERA)

Stephan Livera links:

• Follow me on X: @stephanlivera
• Subscribe to the podcast
• Subscribe to Substack

Transcript:

Stephan Livera (00:00)
Hi everyone and welcome back to Stephan Livera podcast. Today I am joined by André Loja. ⁓ Many of you will know André from his work on Free Madeira. Madeira is this, know, this, as I understand, I mean, you correct me, it’s this autonomous island off of Portugal. ⁓ And it’s ⁓ really interesting from a Bitcoin adoption perspective. ⁓ And so, yeah, interested to chat with you. So welcome to the show, André.

André Loja (00:19)
Yes.

Thank you for having me Stephan. It’s a pleasure to be here. And yeah, we’ve been working in Madeira on the free Madeira project for a while now. It’s been, I think almost three years now that we funded the project. So time flies. And…

Stephan Livera (00:44)
Yeah, yeah. So give people a quick

overview, like what is Free Madeira?

André Loja (00:48)
So, Free Madeira is basically a Bitcoin circular economy project, education and adoption of Bitcoin, first and foremost. We started as a non-profit association almost three years ago. We introduced the project, think in Bitcoin Amsterdam at the time. It’s very fuzzy now, time flies, but in Bitcoin years, it seems like every year, seven years, so much happens.

Stephan Livera (01:13)
Yeah.

André Loja (01:14)
So we’re working on adoption and education of Bitcoin. For most, that’s the goal. But we have a lot of other projects ongoing. again, so starting with education and adoption, we have a Enrique, which is our education. ⁓

volunteer but the leads of the education part and we’ve been doing many workshops in Madeira for privates and also businesses and it’s been very successful and now we launched the we finally launched ⁓ the my first Bitcoin diploma in Portuguese and we started a 10-week program that has almost 50 people on board so it’s really great to see the adoption going on I actually have a

I’ll show you our copy of the diploma in Portuguese.

Stephan Livera (02:05)
excellent.

André Loja (02:07)
And now we are actually in conversations with the Secretary of Education on the island to put the PDF as an optional course on all the tablets of the students of Vedada. So hopefully we can do that. And of course it’s all open source, all free to take over. It’s on our GitHub online. So we are spreading also to the other Portuguese speaking countries like Mozambique and Holland.

Brazil of course. Although Brazil is more advanced and they have a lot of other projects like ⁓ Kaka for example and the audio bitcoin guys there in Brazil, we work with them. But yeah, so the education is flying. Merchant adoption is also a big thing here. ⁓ We have Charlie which is our ⁓ merchant adoption rabbit. goes everywhere on the island helping people. ⁓

We have Bitcoin OS POS machines that we… ⁓

bring to the merchants all over the island and we have I think almost 160 merchants now from supermarkets, pharmacies, know, restaurants, you name it. So it’s actually so cool to see that after two odd years of launching this project, you can truly live on a Bitcoin standard in Madera nowadays. We have Bitcoiners around in the community that don’t touch fiat, which is amazing to see. And…

I can tell you what makes me the most proud is now that you…

Most of the businesses, of course, some businesses see more customers than others, but most of the businesses, you go there, you ask to pay in Bitcoin and they don’t even blink. It’s just a payment option, very, yeah, which is great to see. And Bitcoiners are still shocked with that because when they come and visit and we’ve been having a lot of visits from people elsewhere, some decided to stay, which is also part of the project, like to increase the community and attract people to come and business

Stephan Livera (03:55)
Just a normal thing for them. Yeah.

Yeah, to attract people to come and stay, yeah.

André Loja (04:14)
and so on, we’ll speak more about that. They’re still shocked because they go to BTCMAP and shout out to Nathan Day and the great work that they’re doing at BTCMAP. We’ve been partners for many years. I’m actually going to Bitfest in Manchester with them end of November. We’re also gonna introduce sovereign engineering there, which is a thing that we’ll speak afterwards, I guess.

Stephan Livera (04:39)
Gotcha.

Yeah, yeah.

André Loja (04:41)
But

people are still shocked that they go to a business, you know, first time they ask for Bitcoin and they’re just pulled the POS machine payment and they don’t even discuss about it. And the Bitcoiners are like, what?

Stephan Livera (04:52)
Yeah,

right? the typical, because what’s the typical experience people have is like, I heard you take Bitcoin, do you take, do you still take it? And then they’ll be like, no, like the manager has to deal with that or like, it’s on this other tablet, let me go and get that. And then they pull out the tablet and it’s not charged or like the guy doesn’t know how to use it or it’s just sort of, everything’s a bit painful, right?

André Loja (05:01)
Yeah. Yeah.

Hahaha!

Exactly, exactly. sometimes, yeah, sometimes

here and there it still happens, but it was part of the objective all the time is to keep things updated. So Charlie is always taking care of the merchants. And whenever we have a big telegram group, for example, with all the people that love Free Madeira, that live here, and they keep things updated. If for some case, some Bitcoiner goes to a…

to a business and that happens, immediately says, look, this, know, and we send Charlie, you know, take care of this, like, either you accept it or not, like, don’t make the things, you know, you have to put it properly. And now it’s even more easy because we got a grant for the Bitcoin machines, we have a lot of them. So we’re putting them on the, for free on the merchants that have more, you know, regular payments.

So it’s great to see they put the machine, the ticket comes out, everything’s very formal and then normal, regular.

Stephan Livera (06:09)
Hmm. Right. And

the cool thing with the Bitcoinized machine is it just looks like a standard credit card machine, right? So to the everyday fiat normie, it just looks like a normal payment terminal thing. So it’s very similar to what they’ve already used. And it’s just now it can also do Bitcoin, right? And so that’s the cool thing. And of course, as you mentioned, just for listeners who are unaware, btcmap.org is the website for that one. And basically, you can go there and you can find out like if you’re into earning and spending Bitcoin,

André Loja (06:14)
Yes.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Stephan Livera (06:38)
BTC map.org is a great resource. They’ve got an app and they’ve got a website where you can find You know, whatever coffee shops and restaurants and not just that but other things also ⁓ And so that’s a really cool thing. Of course I’ve got an episode in the you know in my back catalog somewhere with Nathan chatting about some of that stuff and I believe I also have a Bitcoin eyes episode anyway, but let’s come back to ⁓ What’s happening in Madeira? I’m curious your take on this. Like do you think it kind of? Okay, so

André Loja (06:46)
Yes.

Stephan Livera (07:07)
Let’s put it this way, do you believe it has attracted people to the island? What has come from doing this project? What kind of benefits have you seen by doing this project?

André Loja (07:11)
⁓ absolutely.

Absolutely, especially since the conference because we can go there for a bit. When we launched FrimaData ⁓ and ⁓ I’m very fortunate to have this big advisory… ⁓

board with a lot of good people in the network. People like Jeff Booth, Daniel Prince, Knut, and many, many others. So it’s great. And they all helped in the beginning. We had some advisor meetings and so forth. And on the first meetings, when we were still designing the path and the objectives of the association, I put it out there to, we should do a conference, like to bring awareness to the project and so forth.

And my idea was to do a small conference, we would bring the advisory board, start some relationships with the government and institutions and business, like a small thing.

But it totally went out of proportion because Jeff, for example, was monumental at the time and he started inviting some people and then we got Jack Dorsey and then we got Michael Saylor and then we got this and that and suddenly we got this huge conference with 200 speakers from all over the world and 3000 attendees and in a full stadium and it was…

Stephan Livera (08:39)
Yeah, for a first time event,

which is really hard to do.

André Loja (08:42)
Yeah, I still don’t believe it. One year and a half after it happened, how magical it was. Because as you put it out very well, it was a first time event on this small island in the middle of the Atlantic. And it turned out to be this magical week, ⁓ full of Bitcoiners, full of the highest ranking people in the space. And ⁓ it was, I think, the best…

Initial but we could have made ever on free with that association So it is great for awareness and it helped a lot in the beginning, right? Because then we got a boom on on interested people interested businesses There was a lot of as I usually say because at one point I thought I was the only Bitcoin in the data

But I was not. There’s always people around. But when you put yourself out there, suddenly you attract, you start with the meetups, you start with the conference, of course, was really big. And then it starts flowing and it’s just this wave of, you know, people coming and helping and visiting the island. It created a lot of awareness for Madeira. It’s still ongoing. Many people decided to live here. So we have a lot of expats related to Bitcoin that are now living in Madeira.

The local community is also growing. We have monthly meetups where we introduce projects. So there’s always movement around and…

visitors also like the traditional tourism they come a lot because I’m that it’s not it’s very clear I get messages every month of people that are visiting people just now on Twitter I was replying to this guy that you know said that he was he loved my daddy came because of Bitcoin he spent two weeks here on vacation he’s already planning a return so it’s it’s it’s great to see

Stephan Livera (10:29)
Yeah, and I can say like from my visit to the island, you know, back at that time for Bitcoin Atlantis, I think this is like early 2024, right? So this is sort of a year and half ago, right? ⁓ Beautiful island, really nice views out to the sea and things like this. Yeah, really nice. It was a really nice visit. I, you know, I only had the time to just kind of quickly come in and out for the conference. ⁓ But, you know, I had a great experience there. Yeah.

André Loja (10:38)
March, yes.

You have to return for vacations.

Bring the family.

Stephan Livera (10:58)
Well,

yeah, well, lots of places to go. But it is cool to see and I definitely love the, you know, that because it’s one thing to kind of get a lot of merchants on board it, but it’s another thing to actually keep them. And part of how you have to keep them is they need to see enough payment volume, right? I think this is like a trap that’s happened in some circular economy attempts before where maybe they onboard too many merchants and there’s not enough put it this way, there’s too many merchants, not enough people buying things with Bitcoin to sort of keep the flow going.

André Loja (11:01)
I know.

Yes. Yes.

Yes.

Actually, this was a big conversation in the beginning, before the conference. ⁓ know, Charlie, of course, which I understand, he was very excited on here, but you we will need to onboard this many businesses, this, that. And I was like, man, take it really slowly because it needs to grow on par with the demand.

because then you’ll have just, know, business that doesn’t see a payment for a year. That doesn’t make any sense. Of course, the mobile phone will be in dust, you know, disconnected somewhere in the cabinet. So it needs to grow on par with demand. After the conference, it helped a lot, as I said, with the awareness, with the adoption and so we’re growing steadily. Now we have a big base of businesses, I told you, you know, I think 100…

60 odd something right now and and they see regular payments one more than others of course But they see and this is the way we want to keep it. So now we kind of reach I wouldn’t say a plateau but Growing steadily with as long as the community understands it more and know our end grows So we need to be careful on that

Stephan Livera (12:34)
Yeah, I’m curious if you’ve seen, you know, like in years gone by, it might have been, ⁓ when there’s a big price moving up, that’s when a lot more people want to actually earn and spend Bitcoin. Have you noticed that pattern? Or is it more just kind of just a secular growth trend? Is that what you’ve seen?

André Loja (12:50)
Honestly, I don’t think so. ⁓ I think it’s more the latter. So, and especially now, I think it’s a lot more about, especially from non-Bitcoin, those who are not there yet. ⁓ I think businesses just want to way out, right? They want to save the money. The Debasement, the Fiat Debasement syndrome is very deep now.

and in the norm is even like on all the general population because it’s, you know, know, you know what happened, especially after COVID, it was eye opening for a lot of people. So I guess it’s more that than the price of Bitcoin itself, which is great.

Stephan Livera (13:26)
Right, because Cost of Living is going up pretty much anywhere around the world.

Yeah, I think things have shifted, you know, in earlier cycles, it really was kind of all correlated to the price. Whereas now, yeah, it seems like it’s more just kind of an adoption, you know, and I think to me, if I was kind of zoom out, I think that kind of looks at like, you know, power law adoption rates and things like this. ⁓ So what’s the attitude like, you know, Bitcoin is on the island, like, are people, you know, especially the ones who live there? ⁓ What is it like for them? Are they, you know, are they loving it being able to earn and spend Bitcoin?

What’s the vibe like there?

André Loja (14:09)
Yeah,

as I told you, the community is growing. Everybody that came is loving it, which is great. Everybody that came to visit wants to repeat, which is also great, because it’s not only Bitcoin, but that is special. You mentioned the views and this and that, but we are very fortunate. We are a very high…

quality of life, place to be. The life here is amazing, the weather is great, but you still have a good mix of culture and it’s not this far away remote island where you can’t access culture and restaurants and so forth because Madera was very touristic since ever, it’s very cosmopolitan. We have not only the 270 something thousand inhabitants, there’s also a big community of people from all over the world at all times.

very connected island. have direct flights to all over Europe, even America, New York, and so it’s very well connected so you don’t feel like you’re lost in space and you want to reach somewhere fast. It’s very easy to travel.

So people who came are loving it and you know how Bitcoiners are. So Bitcoin is in your head at all times. So they started businesses, started projects. We have had lot of now collateral damage as I would say out of Frimadera on satellite projects, well independent projects, I like, know, Frimadera was a spark for that explosion to happen, right?

Stephan Livera (15:40)
Yeah.

André Loja (15:42)
and they have an educational project like A Place To Be, which is an unschooling project. now have a big group of people that bought a big plot of land in an amazing place in Fochal and they’re doing this sovereign space there with horses and houses and it’s an amazing project that will, you know, it’s still ongoing but it’s gonna take a while but it’s being already built.

We have the sovereign engineering project, have the Basalto Fund that I created on the side. So suddenly a lot of options happen because of what we’re doing with Free Madeira and that was also one of the goals. Attract people, attract businesses, know, bring more awareness to Madeira also on the financial and the economic activity that can happen because of the Free Madeira project.

Stephan Livera (16:33)
Gotcha. Let’s jump into the sovereign engineering because I know this is an interesting one. ⁓ Can you give us a bit of an overview there? Like what is this project? And yeah, just overview it for us.

André Loja (16:45)
So sovereign engineering is a bit hard to explain and I’m not technical, so I’ll just put it out there. But of course you’ll know very well the names of the people involved. So we founded the project with Gigi, Pablo Fernandez and Martijn. And of course Pablo and Gigi are very, very, you know, deep on the technicals and they wanted to create this kind of… ⁓

brainstorming cohorts along the year to bring developers ⁓ together to create Freedom Tech. And it started as a project and it was really, it evolved a lot since the first cohort. We just finished the fifth cohort right now, so this was the shirt for the fifth cohort actually. Nice design by NoGood actually, let me put it out there, beautiful shirt. ⁓

Stephan Livera (17:35)
Yeah. that’s cool.

André Loja (17:40)
and no good, this is amazing designs. So the first edition was just before Bitcoin Atlantis and it finished with the demo day in Bitcoin Atlantis on the last day of the Bitcoin Atlantis thing. Jack Mullers was there to see it, Jack Dorsey, so it has the support of a lot of ⁓ big names as well.

And I think now with the evolution that came out of it, especially now after this fifth cohort and now we have Yo, ⁓ shout out to Yo running the show ⁓ full time.

⁓ It’s more like, think Gigi had a conversation with Jeff the other day and they got to a name that I think is more explanatory. It’s more like an open source incubator. So it’s not like the traditional incubator where you got to share and it’s all about, you know… ⁓

profits and so forth. The goal of this is to involve the people in deep conversations to guide them on creating great open source freedom tech projects. And a lot of it, you can go to our website on sovereignengineering.io and there’s a lot of explanation there and you’ll see all the projects that already came out of it, like Blossom and Natsaps and a lot of the eCash stuff. ⁓

of people that came as well, very like Kale, Justin Moon, know, and many others that came and are repeat now they are kind of part of the SEC as we call it SEC so sovereign engineering cohorts alumni and the idea is now to keep it ongoing all year round with fresh ideas so people can keep building and putting stuff out there shipping stuff out there so

Stephan Livera (19:32)
Excellent, yeah. Yeah, it’s cool to see because I think as you said, it’s freedom tech. It’s not only Bitcoin, it’s things like Bitcoin and Nostra and maybe eCash and other related ideas. Yeah.

André Loja (19:42)
It’s very focused on protocols,

On free open source protocols. NOS3 is a big part of it. But also of course, Lightning and Acash and all related technologies.

Stephan Livera (19:56)
Yeah, interesting to see because I think we’re seeing a lot of as people sort of come down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, they sometimes but not always get an interest in some other related ideas, things like maybe decentralized or encrypted communications or, you know, other sort of things that kind of are adjacent with Bitcoin, let’s say. So it’s interesting to see that I know, as an example,

Even people like Jack Dorsey, think he’s continually been big on this idea of, what if we could have some kind of decentralized GitHub instead of everyone relying on github.com slash bitcoin slash bitcoin to host the core repository, this kind of thing. So it’s interesting to see that.

André Loja (20:27)
Yes.

The goal is very…

it seems like a very crazy project and so forth, but the goal is very big actually. They want to make the internet better in the end. And bring it back to some of the initial foundation ideas of the internet that were…

captured along the time with this, know, silos that, you know, capture your attention as a currency. So they want to help and accelerate the projects that can bring us out of it, basically, to a deep, more, a more deep, personal, human, decentralized, you know, free internet as the initial idea was.

Stephan Livera (21:17)
Yeah. So then how, how does some of this stuff get funded though? Because is it like a paid thing or is it just like, ⁓ it’s sort of just funded like centrally or what?

André Loja (21:27)
So that’s the thing, like we funded the founding fathers, funded the projects since the beginning and we’re just open to donations. Some people helped, shout out to the HRF, Human Rights Foundation, so they did help the project and they are studying, continuing their help. But we’re happy to keep this going.

for a long time. We see a lot of value on it and not only the, And I think some people will help us, we’ll be fine. We’re fine for the next years. Like we really want to bring this, you know, we’re keeping…

Stephan Livera (22:00)
attracting developers and talent to the island this kind of thing.

André Loja (22:13)
making it even better on the next following years and a lot of good things will come next year as well with you now full time as well. yeah, and it mixes with the space and I can mention that, know, because it’s also part of the FIMO Data goals, mixes with SEC as well and having a physical hub in downtown Fuchal as well for all the people.

Stephan Livera (22:38)
Excellent. then on the I guess, because I guess you’ve got a few because I guess you’re a bit of a serial entrepreneur, right? So you’ve got a few things going at the same time, right? As I understand you have a ⁓ right. Yeah, because she wants you to spend time with the family, right? ⁓ I guess a lot of people are in a similar camp there. But ⁓ so I guess I understand you have also a like travel and holiday rental as well as doing

André Loja (22:49)
My wife doesn’t enjoy it a lot, but…

Stephan Livera (23:07)
as well as doing the Basalto Fund, Well, I guess, how would you split your time nowadays? Like, where is your time spread across those different projects?

André Loja (23:07)
Yeah, well…

Yeah, I’ll try to

On

all of them, you know, I just juggle the best I can. Of course, you know, on the fiat side of businesses, because I had businesses before not related to Bitcoin. Of course, all of them now are related to Bitcoin, even if it’s just accepting Bitcoin for payments, but of course, in all of them, right? But I had several businesses before, for example, ⁓ I own an island apart, which is a vacation rental management. We manage properties all around the islands.

and it’s been ongoing for 16 years now. It’s a great project. We’re actually in the office of an island part. I have like 36 people working on an island part, so it’s doing very well. I have Cowork4Shell, which is a coworking space in downtown Fochelle that also accepts Bitcoin for a long time and that actually was a ⁓ very good spark to the initial idea of bringing the president to Miami and so forth because we had

You know, a long time ago I was very proud to have Bitcoin accepted on the wall of Cowork for Shell, you know, in the beginning of all of this. I have Manta, which is a design agency. ⁓ We have ⁓ Archipelago Investments, which is a consulting firm for businesses and individuals who want to move to Madera and want to buy property or want to establish a business. So we have many collateral things that we can mix and, but…

You know, I would say that I’m very, very, most of my time now, it’s very focused on the Bitcoin related stuff. Because it’s not only free Madeira.

It’s also Monstera books because we have a publishing company we translate all the best books in the Bitcoin space to Portuguese and Now we expanded, know since last year we expanded to Brazil and Angola and Mozambique because we want to create a Portuguese speaking country community on Bitcoin and have all the best we have Jeff Booth, Lin Alden

you know many many books translated now in Portuguese and some are coming now like Larry Leopard like even even safety and we’re talking with 15 for the last book as well so many many many books coming we just translated Alex Gladstein’s books for example which are also very cool for for Mozambique and Angola because they touch especially the relationship with the IMF and the World Bank there

Stephan Livera (25:38)
cool.

André Loja (25:47)
do so. We are publishing a lot of books now and it connects very deeply with Frima Data because it’s also part of the education right. So we have the books on the Frima Data shop. We have a store online now and also we want to make a physical one here on the on the future hub and it’s been going great because we sell wallets, sell books, we sell many things online and it’s been surprising we’ve been selling cold cars like popcorn.

which is really great because it funds the Free Madeira project as well. Like all money reverts to the work we’re doing with Free Madeira.

Stephan Livera (26:23)
Yeah.

That’s fantastic. And I’m actually curious to hear, obviously, you’re an accomplished entrepreneur, but also who’s obviously very deeply orange-pilled. How do you think about that question? Because a lot of people might think, well, just hold Bitcoin and you’re not going to beat Bitcoin return. But at the same time, see clearly you’re running different businesses and you see it as part of your operation. So how do you kind of

André Loja (26:47)
I’m not.

I’m sorry but…

Stephan Livera (26:53)
How

do you kind of wrestle with that trade off of like, ⁓ just hold Bitcoin versus actually do operational businesses?

André Loja (27:00)
I’m not on that camp. think money is to be used to do stuff and to grow and you know and then of course I hodl for my personal savings even all the companies now I’m completely orange-pilled since you know

four years ago or five years ago. And even before I doubled in the area, I had all the shit going phase of course and all that story. fortunately I paid my tuition there and everything, it’s gone now. The savings, the goal of all the businesses in the end is also, of course, to have more sets and earn more sets for the business and save it for the future and so forth. But I think Bitcoin is… ⁓

Stephan Livera (27:34)
to earn Bitcoin, yeah.

André Loja (27:43)
It’s to be a medium of exchange as well and I truly believe that. So I use Bitcoin on my day to day. I’m a very big fan of Spend and Replace. We actually created, I can mention that as well, it’s not launched yet but we have a new project as well.

which is a wallet that automates spend and replace because it was actually a need that we found within the community. Actually a need that I had myself. So I wanted to scratch my own itch and we created this wallet called Satsflow. It’s not online yet but I don’t know if I should mention this. It can be one of those announcements of announcements that never comes but.

Stephan Livera (28:22)
it’s a scoop. Alright, let’s go.

So okay, so tell us how the spend and replace works in so let’s say you go to buy the coffee or whatever Like do you have a hookup with an exchange somewhere that auto buys like how does it work?

André Loja (28:34)
So it’s a very simple, yeah, so in

the background it’s all automated, but the full idea is a spend and replace wallet. So you go to restaurant, whatever, you buy your meal, and there’s actually a lever so you can be a psychopath. It goes from one X to 10 X even. We still didn’t decide. yes, so you go there.

Stephan Livera (28:57)
So as in 10x the cost of the meal to buy Bitcoin.

André Loja (29:03)
you let’s say the meal is 20 euros right if you’re on 5x it automatically automatically replenishes the wallet with 50 euros well not 50 if you’re buying 20 100 euros right so it’s also a way to dca by spending

Stephan Livera (29:13)
100 euro. Yeah. Yeah

Yeah.

André Loja (29:21)
because you’re getting more Bitcoin. And of course at one point, the idea is it goes on alert and say, do you have too many Sats? Just bring it to cold wallets and you just, know. And the cool idea is you can’t even accept Sats on that wallet. It just connects your bank account, ⁓ automatically reprints the Sats. And the only way to get Sats there is by spending.

Stephan Livera (29:43)
I see. And so I guess you’ve got to have like some kind of exchange connection and all that aspect of it. So then I guess, yeah.

André Loja (29:50)
Yeah, yeah, in the background it just,

you know, just, every time you spend it automatically knows how much you spend, uses your lever, goes on the background, exchanges by SATs and sends it back to the wall of fame.

Stephan Livera (30:02)
I see. And then what countries is it going to, is it mainly just for use in the island or is it just used in Europe or just in general and it just is a general wallet that will, you know, rebuy.

André Loja (30:09)
It’s a very personal

project, it’s not launched yet so there’s a lot of regulation stuff also in the middle that we’re navigating but the goal is to use it for myself and for the community here but I believe if you could do a good work here it will be helpful for a lot of people elsewhere as well. Right now because we are part of Europe I guess all the regulations will be for the Schengen space.

Stephan Livera (30:18)
Yeah, gotcha.

Yeah.

André Loja (30:39)
But yeah, we pretend to make it available worldwide if you can. So it’s just a very simple wallet for spending in place. I wanted to scratch my own itch and Enrique, which is my partner at Monsera and the education guy on Frimadera. And also it’s being designed by Skylar, which you probably know. And Paul Miller was also helping us on the back end of it. So it’s gonna come out great.

Stephan Livera (30:47)
I see.

no, Skylight, yeah, yeah.

fantastic. Yeah, I mean, that’s great.

Yeah, I mean, for me, obviously, I’m happy to earn and spend, you know, Bitcoin. But I just I probably my difference is I acknowledge I’m ideological about that. I understand for a lot of people, they will just spend fiat and that’s just the way it is. ⁓ Of course. Yeah.

André Loja (31:10)
Ahem.

Which I truly understand.

But you know, it’s the same in the end, right? Because if you spend Bitcoin, it’s just the cost of opportunities. Well, if you spend fiat, the cost of opportunities is same. You could have bought Bitcoin with that money. I think the reasoning is a bit, Nathan is actually from BTCMAP, Nathan is very good at explaining that. We went to a conference in Curaçao together. We met Peter there and it was a great trip. And…

Stephan Livera (31:36)
Exactly.

Yeah.

André Loja (31:51)
was actually just about that. Like people are saying, you know, spend the shit coin first like the fiat, right? But it’s actually the same, right? If you’re spending the fiat, you’re just, you know, not buying Bitcoin with that money anyway. So I think actually the spending replace where you can buy even more kind of creates a feedback loop, which is even more interesting.

Stephan Livera (32:14)
Yeah, yeah, I think it just kind of sort of is it is a little bit case by case, because maybe some people that they just, you know, they’re just not in that place of life. Or maybe it’s just like a mindset or mentality thing. So maybe for them, it is easier to think of it as like, spend and replace or just are when I buy whatever I buy that meal for 2020 euros, I need to rebuy 20 euros worth of Bitcoin, just so that my position doesn’t go down in Bitcoin terms.

André Loja (32:27)
Yeah.

Also in many places the opportunity is not there because there’s no merchants accepting Bitcoin and so forth. every reality is different of course. That’s why we wanted to design a wallet that could serve our needs as a community because we have so many merchants around. Our needs in terms of the easiness of process because nowadays when I spend some sets and I want to replenish I need to go to the wallet and know send back. Do all that process manually which is also bother me because sometimes you don’t do it you know because just just just

busy and just we wanted to create a seamless project to just spend and forget. ⁓ If you do the liver it’s even good like it’s a way to DCA because you’re getting more Bitcoin than you’re spending and it’s great that way.

Stephan Livera (33:30)
Yeah. Let’s switch to your Baselto Fund. as I understand, this is like another new thing you’re doing, which relates to investing ⁓ in either Bitcoin or Bitcoin ⁓ companies. it actually, can you just give us an overview? What is Baselto Fund?

André Loja (33:44)
So, yeah,

so what I thought of was an idea that I had with Jeff Booth for a long time. Since we started the FreeMirror project,

We thought about doing a fund in Portugal for real estate investment in Madeira that could mix Bitcoin. Like there’s some projects in the States that do, there’s Grant Cardon that invests in real estate but buys a share of Bitcoin for the long term and so forth. You know, that kind of ⁓ organization.

But at one point, and this was mixed with the Golden Visa Program of Portugal, that it’s been ongoing for many, many years, which is a way to, it’s a residency by investment, citizenship by investment program, right, that Portugal has for a long time, and that has been very successful.

Because there’s a lot of demand for Portugal. It’s a great country to live. There’s you know, the crypto rules are Good because if you hold all four over one year, there’s no taxes on Bitcoin and crypto overall But that’s not let’s not mention the word crypto anymore ⁓

Unfortunately, it’s all in the same package as you can imagine but But at one point because of the housing prices and inflation and all of that and you know our politicians and the local ⁓ People they confuse stuff so they stopped The real estate path out of the golden visa so you couldn’t there it was not allowed to buy a property And you know get citizenship by investment through real estate So we kind of stopped the project for a while, but then I saw some people launch

⁓

and let me put it this way. So the golden visa was only eligible now if you invested on ⁓ funds, so investment funds, And there’s funds for many things like solar projects and this and that and all kinds of funds, but they’re all fiat-based, right? So I didn’t see any interest in that at all.

But then a few months later, I saw these guys launching an investment fund in Lisbon that supposedly was a Bitcoin investment fund. And when I started researching, was… They were not lying, but not in a way that a Bitcoin owner like me would appreciate. They get the money and the minimum capital you need to be eligible for the golden visa is 500,000 euros.

So they would get that money and they would invest 60 % in BlackRock ETF, so iBit, right?

Stephan Livera (36:22)
Yeah.

André Loja (36:22)
and the other 40 % they said they are going to invest in crypto companies in Lisbon and so forth. So I was like, know, not enjoying that process, but it got me thinking, if these guys can do this, maybe I can create a better option. So I started working with a partner of mine that is a big shot tax lawyer in Lisbon.

Stephan Livera (36:30)
Right.

André Loja (36:46)
And we ended up building it. So the proposition is very easy. It’s just an investment fund where you have to invest the minimum 500,000 euros. ⁓ But we invest in spot Bitcoin. So we buy the asset. custody. There’s two things. So we buy a minimum of 80 percent goes directly on the asset, which we custody with NIDIG in New York.

Ross Steven Company, so shout out to them. They were partners since the beginning, which is great. We wanted a very reliable partner on the custody. And the other 20 % are up to 20 % because it depends on the opportunities that arise. We invest on the Bitcoin ecosystem again, but through EgoDead Capital. So, Lina Alden, Jeff Booth, Preston, Nico and Andy, they’re doing a great job there. Actually, they just closed the second fund with over 100 million on the second fund.

Stephan Livera (37:34)
Gotcha.

André Loja (37:45)
We are going to reinvest through them on the Bitcoin ecosystem, on Bitcoin startups. And I wanted to design it this way because the fund has a maturity of eight years. So you have to keep the investment ongoing eight years because of the golden visit process as well. Because you get residency and citizenship and we can go on more detail on how that process is as well.

The idea is you keep the investment ongoing for eight years and when we liquidate the fund in the end, I believe a lot of the work EGODET Capital is doing and I believe we’ll be successful enough that we can pay out the investors more sets in the end than what they invested in the beginning.

even taking into account the 2 % management fee that we have along the eight years. So the idea was to create a fund, a Bitcoin-friendly fund, that Bitcoiners could look with interest, not to lose… Main goals, do not lose exposure to Bitcoin.

as an asset during those eight years, right? That’s the most important part. And B, Sets Flow Positive. So that investment can bring you more Sets eight years. Yes. So that’s the whole goal of the fund.

Stephan Livera (39:01)
Right.

than what you put in theoretically. Interesting.

So as I understand the Portugal Golden Visa, so as you said, it’s a residency program, but my understanding is Portugal has these rules where I think it’s after, what is it, five years? And there’s certain requirements. think you have to do from, I mean, you tell me that my understanding is it’s like a week, a year, or something like this. And then you also have to study to a certain level Portuguese and be able to pass a test and pass the language test, right? No?

André Loja (39:17)
Yes.

No, I actually know. I actually know.

There’s no language. That’s the good part. The golden visa path itself, it’s rather easy because of course there’s a big ticket on the investment. We know it’s a European country, so it’s 500,000 euros. That’s the hard part. It’s expensive, but then actually the golden visa process is not that hard because you do have to spend…

The rules are you have to spend 14 days every two years. So basically it’s a week per year in Portugal. You can also choose to live in Portugal. So you get residency. You can choose to live in Portugal for the duration. And five years later, you get access to the passport itself.

Stephan Livera (39:59)
care.

André Loja (40:15)
And also not only you, your family as well. So your spouse and your dependent kids and dependent father, parents if you do have them, right? So it’s for the whole family. Of course there’s some extra costs associated with the golden visa process, but it’s not much. It’s just the…

the regular lawyer fees to take care of the process and there’s a government fee for the the Golden Visa should set you up around 30 to 40k depending on who you’re working with because that’s another project on the side. We can help with that as well through archipelago investments but we usually recommend actually people to just know go with the experienced Golden Visa firm in Lisbon that they can take care of all the process and we take care of your assets for the long term. it’s a let’s

Stephan Livera (40:59)
of the fun part of it.

André Loja (41:03)
Let’s say it’s the fourth hodl of your bitcoin for eight years.

Stephan Livera (41:07)
Yeah, I see. Okay, so and then theoretically, I’m just looking up the numbers now. So as an example, so you’re putting up just over five BTC, I guess, 5.27 BTC in terms of what goes into the fund. Of course, there’s some other fees and other parts to it. And then, as you said, minimum 80 % of that will just be Bitcoin exposure. And then up to 20 % of that could be

André Loja (41:33)
Yes.

Stephan Livera (41:36)
essentially VC exposure through ego death capital and so that’s the part that’s maybe a little more at risk like you could lose a bit but you could gain and hopefully if you know if yeah

André Loja (41:38)
Yes.

Exactly.

You can gain a lot, you can lose everything.

That’s the VC game. But we do believe a lot in the work they’re doing. I don’t think it’s going to be zero.

I don’t think at all. think actually their hurdle rate and they mentioned this a lot their hurdle rate is the Bitcoin hurdle rate. So they want I think we’re gonna have more successful exit liquidation that will help us be such flow such flow positive on the investment fund. Worst case scenario you got a minimum of 80 % on BTC directly and that exposure you don’t lose.

Stephan Livera (42:13)
Gotcha. And then what’s the fee? Yeah.

Yeah.

Gotcha. Yeah, because I guess that would be the if people are thinking now, okay, they want some kind of EU residency, right? And they would otherwise be selling Bitcoin to get fiat, right? Or maybe the other way would be if they borrow against some Bitcoin to get some fiat, now they’re paying interest. So guess you’ve got to people have to do their own sums their own analysis, of course, everyone’s situation is different.

André Loja (42:33)
Yes.

There’s also

other things that come into equation and I like to be transparent.

Because of regulations, we can’t accept the 500k euros in Bitcoin, right? We have to accept them in fiat, which for some people it’s hard because they have their wealth in Bitcoin and it’s a taxable event in some places. let’s say you’re a US resident. So what we advise is for people to look into their own situation. Some people can invest through those self-directed IRAs that they have in the States.

Stephan Livera (43:02)
To sell, yeah.

I see, yeah.

André Loja (43:16)
and they have the self-managed super funds in Australia and they have some equivalent stuff in the UK as well. So that’s better because it’s not taxable so they can move the investment.

Stephan Livera (43:29)
Right, because they might have a special

tax environment and if they can do it inside of that special tax environment then there’s less of a tax hit so you’re saving on the taxes there. I see.

André Loja (43:33)
Yes.

There’s no tax hit,

so if they move the investment within the IRA to our fund, we have one investor that did that already. There’s no taxable event there. And also at the end, when the fund liquidates, for non-residents, actually that capital gains is zero. So when you get the…

the capital gains in the end of the eight years, which hopefully in euro terms, euro unit of measure will be a lot if Bitcoin continues to do its own thing. When we return the money back to the investor at the end of the fund, it’s zero capital gain tax. So it’s also a very good thing.

Stephan Livera (44:14)
I see. Okay. And so what’s the fund? ⁓ What’s the cost on the fund on the Basalto fund side? Is it the two you mentioned 2 %? Is that the fee annual?

André Loja (44:24)
Yes, so we charge, there’s some smaller fees as I told, like there’s a 3,000 fee for STAG, which is our fund managers that we work with in Lisbon to do all the compliance projects and so forth. That’s a very small 3,000 at the beginning of the fund. And then there’s 2 % management fee per year along the duration, right? And that…

Stephan Livera (44:40)
Like per year.

Got it. So I guess just simple in simple terms,

it’s like 500k 2 % of that is what 10k. So you can just kind of think loosely 10k by eight years so about 80k euro

André Loja (44:54)
Well,

the unit, it’s a percentage, so the unit of measure is euros, so if Bitcoin increases in price, it will be 2 % of the assets under management. But it’s always 2%. Our big ticket for us, let’s say the greedy part of doing this project on my behalf, like the investor side of it, of Basaltofan,

Stephan Livera (45:03)
I see, yeah, right, right.

André Loja (45:18)
is at the end at the liquidation. We also believe Bitcoin is gonna do their work, it’s work, right? And we do have a 10 % cut at the end on the gains. So it’s 2 % management fee plus 10 % cut in the end. So in the end, the unit of measure is euros. Let’s say for, you know, simple explanation. Stephan Lever, you go into our fund as an investor, you invested 500k euros.

Stephan Livera (45:33)
Okay, I see.

André Loja (45:47)
at the end of the eight years just for accounting purposes let’s say it’s worth your position it’s worth one million right double we will pay you back the 500 000 euros clean and then on the profits on the other 500 000 euros we will take a 10 % cut

Stephan Livera (46:05)
Yeah, I see. Yeah. And I mean, I guess it also you have to think what do you think Bitcoin is going to do in that eight years time, right? Like if, if like, as an example, if I think on, you know, power law trajectory, let’s say you hit a million in 2033, eight years, I mean, that’s almost a 10x, almost a 10x in that the Bitcoin would do. So that 500k that you put in might be loosely kind of in the range of 5 million euros ish.

André Loja (46:23)
Yes.

Stephan Livera (46:33)
⁓ Now of course there’s fees and other things along the way and that would be a hundred percent Bitcoin This is 80 % Bitcoin. Yeah, but anyway point is it I guess you’ve got to do your own a kind of estimate of where because for every Bitcoiner You’ve got to think well, where do I think Bitcoin is gonna be in eight years plus? Okay, what am I paying on fees? What are what are I paying on performance? Etc

André Loja (46:51)
Yes, and for us as well and the decision

all of it and this decision for us was also very you know we had to think a lot about this in the beginning when we were designing the phone I could have made it simpler and just put 100 % in Bitcoin but I really wanted to be part of the motto of creating a Satsflow positive business

not for regulation processes, but for us, our unit of measure is SATs. I want to be able by the end of the fund to pay out more SATs to the investors than invested in the beginning and take a cut for myself and the other investments we have in the fund on SATs as well and be SATs for the positions. That’s our whole goal. And for that, we needed to design a process that was also low preference, low time preference, right? Our whole goal is to be very successful by the end of the eight years.

get their nationality in the meantime and their citizenship and at the end they will get their stats back with more on top. That’s the whole goal.

Stephan Livera (47:56)
Yeah.

Yeah. And of course, it’s, I guess, yeah, I guess for a lot of Bitcoiners, they will want to maintain the Bitcoin exposure, right? Like if you’re hardcore about Bitcoin, you want to maintain as much Bitcoin exposure as you can. And I guess you have to think about, yeah.

André Loja (48:11)
I

have no doubts that if you’re a Bitcoiner and you’re looking into this kind of investment for your own family, for yourself, for your family, it’s much better than the other options available in the market.

It’s a very niche thing. It’s for Bitcoiners. It’s not for everyone, of course. Like the regular guy would want to invest in our fund because I think it’s crazy to put the 80 % allocation on Bitcoin. He probably prefers some kind of solar panel installation somewhere. So there’s a big gap in understanding there. But this is for Bitcoiners, for people who believe that they want this nationality, they want the citizenship, and also they believe this is a much better product because they’re not losing

exposure to Bitcoin on this at least on this capital of 500,000 euros.

Stephan Livera (49:01)
Gotcha. Yeah. Now, I guess, zooming out a little bit, but still on the topic of nationality residents, where things are going. Exactly how autonomous is Madeira from the rest of you know, the craziness that’s going on, you know, in Europe, you know, like, I kind of get a sense that a lot of the EU is very pro regulation, pro red tape, right? Obviously, you’re closer to it than I am. But what’s your sense of it? And

André Loja (49:09)
Thank

True, and we’ll…

Stephan Livera (49:31)
How does Madeira compare with like what’s going on in the EU land?

André Loja (49:36)
We have some freedoms within our regulations. are officially an outermost region of Europe. We are a semi-autonomous region of Portugal. We have our own president, our own government. But there’s a set of regulations that still connect us to the mainland, and especially on the big topics, let’s be honest, like taxes and all that stuff, nationality and so forth. So we do depend still on the national government and on the national programs. And we are still dependent on the Parliament of Portugal for the very

hard laws that governments create. that’s not ⁓ true. We are under the EU scope and that’s good and bad at the same time. There’s also good things and also there’s bad things. And then it needs to comply with most of the rules. There are some freedoms on the…

tax space but for example we have we can’t decide our own taxes but we can create a gap so taxes in Madera are better than the mainland for example 30 % lower for individuals and for businesses for example and this is important for the fund because the fund invests in the Madera business so at the end the numbers will be better than other projects located in the mainland because our capital gains tax will be lower by the end of the fund.

So there’s good things and bad things and we can do some individual stuff like for example I was mentioning my first Bitcoin diploma, right? That we’re gonna put on PDFs on the tablets of the students of Madeira. This was not possible in the mainland. We have our own education secretary that has a lot of freedom on what he chooses to.

to impose in Madeira. And also the good part is we’re a small island in the middle of the Atlantic, so I guess they will not be worried about our own stuff here most of the time, which is great. We are very far away from the big capitals and the big stuff that is happening in the mainland.

Stephan Livera (51:28)
Yeah.

Yeah. so aside from the residence program and Basalto Fund, people who just want to move to Madera, what does that process look like? Is it hard to get residency rights there? How does it work? Yeah.

André Loja (51:43)
No, there’s many options. There’s

many options. Actually one of the good parts of the European Union is the freedom of movement. That’s very good. So if you’re from Europe, you can move here at any time you want. We have a lot of Bitcoiners from Europe that just moved. If you’re from elsewhere, there’s different programs. One of the options is the Golden Visa Fund. So you can invest in one of these funds, hopefully ours, if you’re a Bitcoiner.

⁓ But there’s other options like the D7 visa which is like a nomad kind of visa that gives you like one or two years residency and some benefits. Also you can move and apply for a different kind of visa like the visa for if let’s say you’re a Bitcoiner ⁓ and you want to create a business you can actually this is a welcoming thing for people to think about. You have a business elsewhere you can locate your

business in Madeira on our hub that we’re going to create soon. We have a working space and offices we’re designing the whole thing. You can locate a business there, be an employee of the business or the founding father or whatever, have a salary there and apply for the visa with all that stuff as well because if you do have a business and a salary in Portugal you can apply for the visa of relocating to Madeira.

which is also a path in itself. So there’s many, different options here. We can help with all of that, by the way. If you’re thinking about it, just reach out, we can advise.

Stephan Livera (53:14)
Interesting.

Yeah, so different pathways in, I guess, you know, everyone has to do their own kind of analysis where where in the world do they want to be? What places what, you know? Yeah. And of course, you know, for a lot of people, whether they’re bringing their wife and kids along or, you know, whatever, such a different situation is different there, But I think it’s interesting to see the competition now for talent for investors for

André Loja (53:27)
Yes, that’s the most important part.

Absolutely.

Stephan Livera (53:48)
you know, people to just

come and set up and live somewhere because, ⁓ yeah.

André Loja (53:50)
And one of the,

there’s bad parts about being under the EU umbrella, but there’s also very good parts, the development that Madera had for the last decades was incredible. Infrastructure here is amazing. Digital infrastructure is amazing. We have underwater cables from all over the world. So internet is crazy fast and good and everything’s 5G is all over like 100 % coverage. Like it’s very good. And quality of life is through the roof. Like we have schools.

good healthcare, have good restaurants and arts and music and you know there’s it’s a very good place to live if you’re not and I respect it’s a personal decision from from everyone right but if you’re not that guy that wants to go to

Let’s say a good example, the work they’re doing in El Salvador, which is great. And I’ve been there and it’s amazing and there’s a lot of development ahead of them. But if that’s not for you and you prefer to be closer to Europe, ⁓ that is a great option. A very good compromise, I would put it that way.

Stephan Livera (54:57)
Excellent. just, guess, closing up, are you looking forward to over the next couple of years? And also, as I understand Bitcoin Atlantis, you announced a little while back that it’s going to be not an every year conference, a once per cycle conference. I guess the next one is going to be 2028. ⁓ What could people look forward to?

André Loja (55:12)
Yes.

Yes.

So the decision to put it every four years was very interesting and actually a let’s say a very happy idea that I had because look, I did the conference and it was amazing. It was great. But it was a lot of work. It was a big conference. It was very hard to… ⁓

to arrange everything and to put it up there flawlessly. Well, it wasn’t flawlessly, but for us, on our view, but for the most part, people didn’t notice all the shit that happened. It was a great experience.

But if I did that every year, FRIMA DERA would just be a conference organizer because it’s so much work to do that every year. So I had the fortunate idea to do it every four years because by accident it was an Alving year as well. So it made sense to kind of make the World Cup of ⁓ conferences aim to do a very good one again in 2028 and even surpass the last one.

And in the middle, we have time to do all the other work we want to do with Free Madad. And we’re doing the meetups, we’re doing the education part, we’re ⁓ contacts on energy, we didn’t speak about that, we’re trying to do a lot of contacts on energy and mining operations in Portugal and in Madad and so forth. We even launched a smaller thing that we’re doing every year, which is a free energy summit. So we do a smaller conference just based on energy, on mining and so forth. We did the first one

Lisbon this year in April and we invited a lot of government officials and private producers and so forth. We had Daniel Batten, we had Eric from Gridless, we had Rachel from TerraHash, we had the 21 energy guys and so forth. It was very successful and actually it provided us with the contacts now to start some test runs with the wind guys and the solar guys and so forth to start really doing some energy projects in Portugal in Madera.

and you know

So while I was talking about everything we’re building in Fremadera again and the big goal is to do the physical hub as I told you. So we have plans for that as well. I’m visiting many buildings now. We want to put the headquarters of Fremadera there, the education room, the co-working spaces. We want to locate sovereign engineering there as a base for all the year and for the cohorts that come every now and then. To increase the awareness at the store front there as well because now it’s online mainly. At the store there with everything we have.

and be a base, a physical space for the community which I think it’s very very important to keep the dynamics of the community and all the projects that are already here in Madeira and that we plan to invite to be more present in Madeira. So that’s the big goal for the next year I would say.

Stephan Livera (58:06)
Awesome. Well, yeah, it sounds like, mean, you’ve got a finger in many different pies, but it also is really, I think, fascinating that you’re really trying to, I guess, lead by example and show people, hey, you can actually set up these businesses and get people to earn and spend Bitcoin in those businesses. So that’s really cool. I hope listeners check out what you’re doing, whether that’s on the free Madera side or whether they check out if the Baselto Fund is right for them or not. I don’t know. That’s up to them. ⁓ But of course, there’s lots of different

bits and pieces here. So what’s the best place for people to find you online and follow your work?

André Loja (58:42)
So if you follow freeMadeira on the on the regular places like X and Instagram and so forth we are everywhere freeMadeira.org and also me I’m on Twitter and Nostra and Reloja just reach out there will be you know I think that actually the best way to be updated about freeMadeira is the newsletter on the website you’ll find that we create beautiful newsletters every month it’s it’s or every couple of months it’s not we’re not gonna spam you but all the updates go there beautiful

I have a great team helping me on that. Just follow us. Check the website, check all the other projects as well. Basalto.fund, sovereignengineering.io, A Place To Be, all the projects that are in Madera. reach out, we’re always here.

Stephan Livera (59:29)
Excellent. Thank you, André.

André Loja (59:30)
Thank you Stephan.