How do you teach Bitcoin to your Boomer relatives and friends? What are some of the common sticking points? Should you explain it as Digital Gold? Gary Leland, Hall of Fame podcaster, entrepreneur, and conference organizer of Bit Block Boom joins me to discuss!
Time zone: Tuesday 14th July 6pm PT, 9pm ET, Wednesday 15th July 11am AEST. It will be broadcast on YouTube Live at the link below, and on my twitter periscope @stephanlivera.
Gary links:
- Twitter: @GaryLeland
- BitBlockBoom: bitblockboom.com
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Podcast Transcript:
Stephan Livera:
Hi everyone. And welcome to the Stephan Livera podcast. A show about Bitcoin and Austrian economics today, episode 193. My guest is Gary Leland. We’re going to be talking a bit about Bitcoin for boomers. How do you introduce it to them? How do you teach them about it? What are some of the things that they have to learn from a technical perspective? Is it useful to tell them about digital gold? And Gary is also the creator of BitBlockBoom. So we’ll be chatting about that. But first bringing in my guest, Gary Leland, Gary, welcome to the show.
Gary Leland:
Howdy. Howdy. Howdy. Hey, good to be here,
Stephan Livera:
Gary. I really enjoy how you’ve been owning the Bitcoin for boomers brand. I think you’ve really been taking that on and you’ve really been talking a little bit about ways to help boomers understand about Bitcoin. So look, let’s just hear a little bit about you.
Gary Leland:
Me personally. Yeah, I’m a boomer for damn sure. Born in 1955, I got into you know, I just, the only thing I dread my in my life I regret is they didn’t have computers, like until I got my first computer, like in 1983, I would’ve died to have a computer in high school. Oh my gosh, I would’ve been great, but I built my first eCommerce site in 96, my first podcast in 2004, 2006 as Time Magazine’s 50 coolest websites, my podcasting website. 2015, I think I got inducted into the podcast hall of fame. Cause I started podcasting in 2004. I was one of the first 50 podcasts on the planet. 2017, I think the city of Arlington, Texas named March 1st, Gary Leland day. And then I started buying my first Bitcoin in 2017. So I always include that cause that’s a big day.
Stephan Livera:
Very important. It’s an honor to be hosting a hall of fame podcaster. It’s such as yourself.
Gary Leland:
I think just cause I was so early. Not cause that was great.
Stephan Livera:
Yeah.Well, I’m curious in your, in your mind, how has, how have things changed in the time since we, you starting and podcasting today?
Gary Leland:
Oh wow. It’s changed a lot. It was really hard to podcast back then. Back then when I first started, I may have been active 50th. I’m not sure there was no one counting, but I was really in the top hundred. I know. And everybody, I knew used the Mac because it came with garage band. So the people who were figuring it out had recording software on their computer already. And then you had to host your own files. There weren’t places really to host file. Libsyn came along. They were the first place, to host files. But at first you had to put your own enclosure tags on your file. It was a lot of work. You had to really want to podcast when I started. Now it’s now it’s so simple and there are so many resources and it’s so big. Now I remember it took years for, I found anyone who knew what a podcast was.
Stephan Livera:
I wonder if there are parallels with Bitcoin, you know, in the early days.
Gary Leland:
The people are the same. It’s the same kind of people in the early days of podcasting. You know, if you went to 2006, I went to the first podcasting conference in Ontario, California. And it was a select group of people that all felt the same way. And a funny story is we were on a plane going, I was on a plane going from Dallas to California and I heard in front of me a voice. Cause that’s all you knew. These podcasters were my voice. And as a fibrosis in front of me, someone ordering a drink and I said, Scott, is that you, it was a guy named Scott Fletcher. And he goes, Gary, is that you? And then some guy like four rows behind us goes, Hey, this is John back here, guys. We all knew each other by voice, you know, because we all worked with audio a lot and that’s the way it wasn’t now, you know, and it’s Bitcoin, you know, it’s not that that voice deal, but you know, you go to a conference, especially a small conference.
Gary Leland:
And you know, a lot of the people there from from podcasts and different things, videos, and Stephan, you have a lot in common and you get right into a conversation with them and you’re friends automatically. It’s a really kind of the same tight knit group. I think though, as podcasting now, podcasting is huge. I have a conference, I just sold my podcasting conference two years ago. It was the largest podcasting conference in the world. We had 3000 people last year in Florida and Miami and we sold it and it’s like, it’s a mess now to go. It’s nothing like it used to be. It’s like, yeah, you have all these big commercial companies there. So I guess that’s, what’s going to happen too. I guess that happens to everything after it gets to a certain size, but that’ll be happening to Bitcoin too.
Stephan Livera:
Yeah. So look, let’s chat about Bitcoin for boomers. I think many of us, I guess, many of the listeners of my show tend to be more, you know, really into Bitcoin themselves, but we all have relatives or friends who are boomers and maybe they’re not as Bitcoin savvy. I wonder in your mind, when you, when you’re chatting with people in your generation, what are some of the concerns that they might typically have about Bitcoin?
Gary Leland:
Well, you have a lot of people just can’t understand the concept of money that you can’t hold. Even though they don’t hold a lot of their money. So I try to bring it into the rationalization of a credit card. You know, how they have a little bit of money, they touch now, but some things, it doesn’t matter your age. I had a guy over at the house this week working in my studio, making a studio at home and he does networking for a living and he couldn’t understand Bitcoin. And he’s a lot more computer literate than the people I’m talking to. You know, like my best friend, he does, he has a computer and he uses it for sending jokes. That’s all he does. But I think he gets on it sends people jokes, which I won’t open. Cause there’s no telling what it is, that’d be sending me.
Gary Leland:
You know? So he’s not computer literate at all, but some of the things are still the basic same. But I try to go into the fact that it’s like stocks and money and gold. If you put them all together, but you don’t touch him, then they have it. There’s really not a lot of things that are different to explain. And I know that’s not what we want to hear. It’s just taking the time to listen to the questions and then answer them. And most of them have the same questions, but they are just a little bit slower because they don’t understand tech, you know, but it’s the same questions. It’s just a non-techie way of asking the questions. If that makes any sense.
Stephan Livera:
Yeah. I see. I see. And I presume as well, it might be, they might have different concerns, right? Given the stage of life, obviously everyone’s different, but they might be thinking about different things in their life. Right. They might be thinking, okay, I might have children. Can I pass it, pass wealth on or I want to enjoy I want to be on, go on holidays. I want to enjoy the, you know, this time of my life. I guess that the inheritance considerations they might be worried that they might lose it if they’re not technically competent enough.
Gary Leland:
Well, there’s several things there you just hit on. Number one is they do want to leave it to their children. I don’t know my wife and I were talking about this. So the night it must be in our DNA as human beings. Just like you want to take care of your kids. It must be something in your DNA that you want to leave them a bunch of stuff too. Cause I know so many people who like are still living like hermits and they may have, you know, a couple million dollars, but they won’t spend it sell any of it cause they want to leave it to their kids. So there’s something in that, that DNA. So they don’t want to lose their money because they want to leave it to their kids. But then again, you know, you’ve got to realize these people a lot.
Gary Leland:
of them, at least the people I deal with we’re boomers. And as an average, the boomers went through and we had the best financial success out of all the generations that probably ever hit. I mean, I’m not saying that about myself personally. I’m just saying boomers as a whole, the amount of money we pass came with us and that we absorbed out of the economy or however you want to say it was the most. So these people, most of them have done fine in life. Now they’ve got their money saved and a lot of them have retirements. They have money savings and 401k’s and stuff and they’re taken care of for life. I mean, it really are. They can sit back. I could sit back now and live the rest of my life and not have to worry. I’m not going to go off.
Gary Leland:
I don’t make some money. I’ll go be in the poor house next month. And that’s the way many boomers are. So if you’re sitting there in that position Stephan and you’re comfortable and you’ve got money and you know, you’re not going to be next week, knowing where your meal is going to come from. Do you really want to like take this chance on something that you just don’t know that much about? You know? So I think it’s really more giving them the tools in the proper order than it is trying to sell them on throwing a bunch of their money that they don’t need to throw anywhere. Cause they’re comfortable. Like my friend Mark, you know, who sends me pictures, jokes all the time on his computer. He, I finally talked into getting on Swan. I said, Mark, I know, listen to me, you need to get some Bitcoin Mark.
Gary Leland:
You know me? And he’s one of the few people who know how much I have, because I know how much his house costs. We’re really that kind of friends. And he goes, okay, okay, I’ll do it. And he called me back and he goes, I got to like, give them pictures of my driver’s license. Yeah, you do. I got to give him my bank account number. Yeah you do. But finally he got on Swan and start say, I’m going to do 50 bucks a week. Now he’s up to 300 bucks a week. I think, you know? So he started doing it and he’s seen it piling up and he started following it. I think you really have to take it. It’s like, it’s like to a degree, a kid with a bicycle, you start them with training wheels. And then you hold the training wheels off once they get riding.
Gary Leland:
And so I sent him an email the other day for Unchained Capital. I sent him the link to the three SIG page. Cause that’s what Mark needs. He’s not technical enough to understand this. He’s not going to be able to set it. He’s not even gonna try to set up a wallet. You know, he’s going to be scared without the help of someone helping him. So that’s where I’m trying to move him to next. So I think you have to do it in steps and let’s face it. Most of them have the money, the ones that you’re trying to sell. It’s not like they’re going, I’m sorry. Maybe I’m being a little closed minded there. Cause I think of my group of people I hang around and you always think of the people you hang out with. I think when you think of it, but enough of them have money that they can throw in. Because certainly when they come home at night, if they’ve got a retirement funds and 401K and they get on their computer at night and they see it dropped 1%, they go, Oh my God, Wilma, we lost 1% of the day. What are we going to do? I mean, they don’t do that. You know? Cause they know they’re going to make it back next week. So, you know, getting him to 1% slowly is the deal, not this thing saying you need to throw a 1%, let’s throw a hundred thousand dollars in there today.
Stephan Livera:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Gary Leland:
But you could talk them into throwing 50 bucks a weekend. And like Mark, he’ll start doing it, getting comfortable with it. And he’ll say, well, I need some of this. Maybe I can afford and I’ll raise it a little bit. You know? So that’s, to me is you got to do it like that kid. It’s like that kid you’re giving swimming lessons. I know some people take their kids to swim by throwing them off a boat and saying, you better make it back. And I’m sure they’re going to dive in if the kid goes under, but I’d rather take swimming lessons for my kids. I had them take swimming lessons and learn how to float and then swim on their back maybe, and then swim around and then joined the swim team. It’s in steps.
Stephan Livera:
Exactly. And I think one thing in the space that sometimes we are, there’s a lot of purity testing and purely signaling in the space. And sometimes we have to appreciate that a newcomer, a newcoiner is going to do things in non-optimal ways, right? They’re not going to be fully holding their own keys. They’re not going to be fully running their own node. But as long as they are incrementally learning along the way, I think that’s the way we should be thinking about this. So I guess for any of your friends, I guess, are there any wallets in particular or any tools that you tried that you typically will teach them how to use?
Gary Leland:
I’ve taught. I’ve used the Trezor. I’ve used the ledger. I’ve used the several wallet. A matter of fact, I’m using a Coldcard now. I wouldn’t teach them how to use a coldcard. That’s for sure, but Trezor is pretty easy to figure out. I think it’s actually easier than a ledger personally. Cause I figured that out back in 2017, so I’ve helped two people. The thing is they all want you to do it for them. And I don’t want to be in the loop and they’re like, can’t you just do this for me? Or they’ll go, Gary, can’t you just buy some Bitcoin for me and hold it for me, you know, like I’m a bank or something. They just want it. But they don’t feel comfortable enough with tech and see. And that’s where young people do have an advantage.
Gary Leland:
They’re comfortable with tech. You know, they grew up with computers. I mean, let’s face it. If you grew up with something, I guess maybe in 20 years, the boomers that are left will be able to laugh at kids, whatever they’re called. Cause they won’t know how to drive a car, you know? And that kid can’t even drive a car. Cause they’re used to self driving cars, you know, everybody’s got their things according to how they grew up and, and boomers grew up with no tech at all. So a lot of them are scared of tech. It’s like you see this on TV a lot. She goes, I think I broke the computer. Cause I touched that button. You know, when you laugh, you laugh. But that’s true to a lot of people. They’re scared they’re going to break it.
Stephan Livera:
Exactly. I think I’ll tell you what, that’s probably a similar experience I have when I’m teaching my mom how to use something as well. Right? Like she’s a bit worried that she might break something. Whereas younger people are a bit more comfortable to experiment and just figure out how it works and just play with it until you pick it up.
Gary Leland:
Play with the computer enough and it didn’t break. So they know where many boomers, the only real experience they have at computers is they go check their bank account and maybe they vote, you know, this on a computer and a grocery store has a touch screen computer for self checkout. But most of them don’t even want to do self checkout because they’re used to having someone take your groceries, bag your groceries. I miss just people carrying it out to my damn car. I mean, you know, so I mean, that’s just kind of funny. I would want to know where that guy is that can put gas in my car and cleaned off my window. You know what? I pulled up to a gas station, check my oil and stuff, you know? So things have changed.
Stephan Livera:
So I think the message I’m taking from you there is it’s really kind of personal service, personalized, you know, the idea of someone there in person to help you. And so an example, there might be something like, instead of just giving them a Trezor, if you’re there with them while they install the Trezor and write down the words, obviously you don’t look at the words, but you let them write down their 24 words and you help them.
Gary Leland:
make sure they don’t just like, copy it with their phone, take a picture with their phone. But they don’t have a problem with doing it. They just need full service. Like you used to get at the gas station. When you pulled up to three guys that came out and worked on your car, they’ll do it. And they got the money, but they need full service and they need the training wheels. So start them off slow, give them full service. Don’t just say order a Trezor and it’ll come in and you can figure it out. Here’s another example. My, my wife’s best friend from college decided she needed some crypto. She started buying some crypto. She has it on an exchange. And when she bought it, I told my wife, says she has to buy a wallet. And I had an extra Trezor that I don’t even know where I got it.
Gary Leland:
Someone sent it to me when I bought something, but I felt comfortable. It was a good Trezor. And I sent it to her it to her free. She still has her money on Coinbase. You know, hasn’t taken it off the Trezor because she can’t get that box open. Cause that’s too deep, a dive, you know, get that box open and figure out something new. But if I came over and we did it together, we could get that off her wallet, you know, off the exchange. So that’s the perfect example, how you really, you really need to give them full service if you want them to accomplish a small amounts, full service to start with.
Stephan Livera:
Yeah, I think that’s exactly the way we have to proceed. And I’m also interested to talk a little bit about learning for them in terms of resources, right? Like obviously one of our favorite books in this space is The Bitcoin Standard or what are some of the resources that you might give if they want to learn a little bit more?
Gary Leland:
Well, I definitely would give him that book to learn. I also would give him and I wish that you’ve asked me, I can’t think of it. Who’s the guy with Swan?
Stephan Livera:
Yan Pritzker.
Gary Leland:
That’s the book I would give him first actually then I would move him to the Bitcoin Standard because you know, that book is shorter. It’s more to the point, it gets into Bitcoin, more into Bitcoin instead of going into my money and all this stuff, which is a great book. I think, I think a Bitcoin Standard by Saifedean, one of the best books there is, but I think that’s a harder book to start with. If you’re trying to teach it a boomer, you know, maybe even also start with the Bitcoin Rabbis book, you know? Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s a simplified book, but I’m in the process.
Gary Leland:
I just have too much going on. I can’t find the time, but I want to take a book like that simplified and just make a small book, you know, not a big book with big pictures, but a small book. That’s that simple that I can give to someone it’s 25 pages. And when they get through like, Oh, I understand what Bitcoin is now, you know, and it’s not then move them over to the Yan’s book and then move them over to the Bitcoin Standard. But yeah, I was starting with Yan Pritzker’s book. I think that’s a great book. And like I said, it gets right to it. I think that’s a great resource.
Stephan Livera:
Yeah. Yeah. What about the Little Bitcoin book? I’d say that for me, one of my favorites in terms of the first book I give that’s a good one as well as well. I think it’s a good book.
Gary Leland:
I think Jimmy and them did a good job on that, but I think that goes into some things that boomers aren’t necessarily that worried about boomers aren’t necessarily that worried about individual freedoms, as much as younger people are because their whole life they’ve loved the government for the most part. And the government didn’t start screwing everybody till after they were, you know, in high school. So they grew up with their parents, loving the government, loving the USA, and they pledged allegiance to the United States every day, you know, in elementary school and high school. So I mean, you know I don’t want to call it brainwashing, but you more accept as my wife told me tonight, she goes, I don’t care what they say. We were watching something on TV. She goes, the United States is still the best country in the world to live in. You know? So that’s, and Jimmy’s book has some more things in if I remember correctly, that individual freedoms, which I don’t, I don’t know that’s a big draw to boomers, you know, just in my opinion. Okay.
Stephan Livera:
Of course.I totally appreciate that. I think it’s, you have to select the right tool for the job.
Gary Leland:
Yeah. I think it’s a great book. I’m just saying, you know, some of those chapters, I don’t think apply to Boomer’s thought waves. Does that make any sense?
Stephan Livera:
Of course. Yeah. Yeah. And perhaps the more investment minded ones or the financial minded ones might be interested in a book, like Why Buy Bitcoin by Andy Edstrom also associated with also working with Swan Bitcoin. So I’m not sure if you’ve had a chance to read that one, but that might also be appealing.
Gary Leland:
I haven’t read that one yet. What was the name of that one again?
Stephan Livera:
Why Buy Bitcoin? So that’s another one. I mean, there’s so many different Bitcoin books.
Gary Leland:
Yeah. Well, I can read them all if they’re good. When someone recommends when I get it and read it just because, you know, you can’t absorb too much information on this subject. I can’t, it’s like a, it’s an, it sounds crazy to say, but it is like the proverbial rabbit hole. Once you go down and you want to suck as much of it in as you can and drink from that fountain of knowledge and just get it in.
Stephan Livera:
That’s right. What about YouTube or podcasts or meetups? Are there any other kinds of resources or ways?
Gary Leland:
In my area here, there really aren’t any meetups to to speak up that and most of them are shitcoin meetups to move. So I would never turn another friend of mine on to that. And I really haven’t tried turning people on the YouTube. I watch a lot. I watch a lot of YouTube. Matter of fact, I hardly ever watch TV anymore. My TV is always just on YouTube. And it’s amazing how the algorithm does find things I’m interested in that I did nothing to even suggest I’d be interested in this thing, which has nothing to do with Bitcoin. Cause all I ever search is Bitcoin, but something will pop up and go out. I’m interested in the top 10 ways that a little houses are made or something, you know, but yeah, I really don’t suggest videos, even though I like I watch a lot and everybody has something they want, if they’re watching this, they know a lot of videos already, so I’m not going to teach them anything new probably.
Stephan Livera:
Of course, of course. And probably a little bit more advanced, but running a node and I know you run a node as well.
Gary Leland:
Casa node and a HODL, and then I have a new start 99. That’s the name of the company? I can’t believe
Stephan Livera:
Start 9 labs. I haven’t, I’ve heard of it, but I haven’t looked into it much yet.
Gary Leland:
We got that running. I haven’t done much with it yet except getting running and updating it. But yeah, I like to screw around with those just so I know what’s going on just to kind of like be able to talk, but I would never recommend one of those to a boomer ever. I mean, you know, this would be the last thing if I started them off of that. They wouldn’t even buy it.
Stephan Livera:
Oh yeah. You wouldn’t start them with that. I guess it would be kind of part of that. Yeah.
Gary Leland:
Got it. Getting that far along yet that I could recommend that to them. You’re like really thinking I’m moving quick with these guys, but I was moving quick. I felt like, cause you know, I’m kind of known whenever I’d go to a party or something as the crazy guy talking about that magical internet money. And I was, I was telling you before, the thing friend of mine rented a movie theater to watch the Superbowl and we were sitting and watching the Superbowl and I was just having a good time. This guy came over, I knew who he was, but hardly knew him. He was like, I hear you’re into Bitcoin. And I was like, yeah, yeah, I am in the whole Superball. He’s asking me about Bitcoin. And I like that, but I really was enjoying that. It’s not every day.
Gary Leland:
You get to watch the Superball with an open bar dinner, people waiting on you in a movie theater, you know, I’m kind of like trying to enjoy this experience here. And so I answered all his questions I could, but people were coming up starting to ask me questions. They were curious about Bitcoin. Then we had the whole Corona deal happen. And it’s, I haven’t been, boomers are like, they’re HODLing you know their lives. I guess basically they’re all scared they’re going to die because they’re the ones that are dying in the highest numbers. So you don’t know, friends of mine are having parties. I don’t see any friends of mine. I’ve seen friends of mine. I see a lot of people, but no one that’s a friend of mine, you know, from my age. So that really stopped the growth of the Bitcoin with the in person answering of questions.
Stephan Livera:
Yeah. Yeah. I have found for me, I’ve had a little bit more inbound in terms of people asking me questions about Bitcoin. Although my friends are a bit younger obviously, and it’s usually
Gary Leland:
They know how to use chat and stuff, man. My friends won’t send me a email asking me, Hey, what’s Bitcoin?
Stephan Livera:
Yeah. And also I want to hear a bit about you’re doing a series? Tell us about the series, the Bitcoin for boomers series.
Gary Leland:
Yeah, that was a biz TV network. It’s I think is it biz tv.com asked me if I would come do there’s 12 episodes in the first season in Bitcoin for boomers and we’re on maybe episode five, we’re filming this week. And yeah, I just bring on guests and we talk about Bitcoin. I mean, for the most part, it’s no different than the other Bitcoin shows. Show for the most part, but it’s me talking about Bitcoin and I tried to explain it and I, I think I asked more questions when people say something where a lot of people would let it go by, you know, I’ve always been kind of like, wait a second. What does that mean? You know, cause I don’t know, I’ve learned so much by just saying, I don’t know what that means.
Gary Leland:
One time I asked that question and I made a million dollars in my life. I saw if I ask him, what does that mean? You know, instead of sounding like a dummy or letting it slide by. So I think that’s kind like my schtick or what makes a mind work. As I ask questions that are basic, more basic than the average person might ask. You know? And as you get more and more knowledge about Bitcoin, it gets harder and harder to ask those questions because you all of a sudden have the knowledge and you don’t, but that is with this TV to show, we’re doing 12 episodes. It’s biztv.com. The first episode I think came out this Saturday, they’re in 51 or 60 different markets. But if you’ve got television, but you don’t have cable and you watch TV on air.
Gary Leland:
You know, with an antenna, this is one of the channels you probably watch or you know, is Biz TV. It’s not on cable. It’s for the people who’ve cut the cord, but they still watch TV. Is there a lot of station? I’ve got cable. So I haven’t seen the show, but there are a lot of people who don’t pay these outrageous cable rights and they just watch all our channels on free TV. And it’s one of the ones that you can watch. If you want to see us in your area, just go to biztv.com. They have a page that shows all their channels and it shows the times for every show in every city. But yeah, it’s kind of weird doing a TV show in a studio with a clock and people running the board and doing how we’re used to doing it.
Gary Leland:
You know, I got 10 minute segments and they’re hard times too.You know, I got to cut it at exact times and you know different time segments, but yeah, Bitcoin for boomers show is it’s fun doing it. You one thing about Bitcoin Stefan. Yup. And , this happened in podcasting too. That’s great. Is you meet so many people by doing media, like you and I are friends, we met in San Francisco. I know Saifedean. I mean, I couldn’t name them all on all my fingers and hands, all the great friends that I’ve met that I can walk up to or I could contact them and talk to if I needed or had a question. So, and that’s the way podcasting was to begin with. And that’s the way Bitcoin is right now. There’s so many people that you get to know so easily that will be contacts and friends.
Gary Leland:
I can tell you because I’ve done this before in 2004, when I started these contacts that we’re all making right now, will be contacts for life. There will be, this market will get so crowded with people that a lot of you’ll meet some, but you just won’t possibly be able to meet them all. But these contacts, we’re all making right now. We’ll be friends for the rest of your lives. You’ll have these contacts forever because you’re going to be in Bitcoin forever. I mean, cause this is different than podcasting. This is something that people will be in for forever.
Stephan Livera:
Right? Yeah. I think that’s a really interesting point. And yeah, It’s as the space grows, you know, it’ll just be difficult if you have a, if you’re a well known name, to be able to answer every DM and every question that comes your way, I mean, you try to, but you just
Gary Leland:
But it’s like if I went to Australia and I was close to you, there’s no way. Even if it was 10 years from now, I wouldn’t look you up. You know? Cause I’ve known you well, enough for instance, I was in Kansas city a year ago and I looked up a guy who was like my buddy online from the first days of podcasting. We had a great time. We went out to dinner with his wife and we were friends just like we were 14 years ago. So these friendships you’re making now, it’s not a Bitcoin subject, but these all last, a long time, I can tell you from experience.
Stephan Livera:
Oh look, I think that makes a lot of sense. Everyone in Bitcoin is trying to think more in a low time preference way. And I think for the long term so absolutely. Also one point I’d loved that you were touching on earlier was around the curse of knowledge, right? Like as you learn more, it becomes harder and harder for you to relate to beginners and newcoiners. And sometimes, you know, you forget these little things and in fairness, if you’re regularly teaching newcoiners, you hear the common questions that come up. So you can have a sense of that. But oftentimes you lose touch of that. Like one example is you know, if you are longer time in a Bitcoin, you know, you write down the 12 or 24 word seed and that’s your backup for all your Bitcoins on that wallet. But for a new person that’s not intuitive. They might, you know, they might think of it like it’s a word file and you save it. And if you don’t, if you don’t save it, you know
Gary Leland:
Taking a photo of it. When I first set up my first wallet someone had me set up someone who was educating me because I just kept asking him questions and questions, and questions as you start talking, he goes, why don’t you come over my house? My wife I’ll get some dinner. We talked some more. So I bought an open dime from him. I went on a line of bought some Bitcoin and I put it in open dime. And then I took a picture of it. My thing is you can’t take a picture of that. And I was like, why not? You know, that’s why I always use the taking picture. I did it. You know that now.
Stephan Livera:
Of course. Yeah. And I mean there’s different apps and tools out there. So I know for example, Casa wallet, they’ve tried to do seedless style so that you don’t have to do, you didn’t have to write down the words, obviously within the Bitcoin community, there’s a bit of debate around some of that stuff around, you know, open source, closed source, et cetera. But as a training wheels, as a way of getting people in, I think it absolutely makes a lot of sense. Right?
Gary Leland:
I think Bitcoin is again, a lot like podcasting and the fact that I told you, wait, when we started the conversation, we talked about podcasting as I said, how hard it was back then. And I think that when we go 10 years into the future from now, people will interview you and go, what was it like doing, coming back? Then you go, it’s pretty damn hard. Like go buy my Bitcoin. I had to make this wallet. I had to write down all these words. I had to transfer over a little bit. And I was scared as hell. I lost my money and I was waiting and wait and it went through. Then I moved more of it, you know? And so I think that that’s now as hard as it seems, or maybe as easy as this seems, to people who know it that 10 years from now will go, man, it was hard as hell back then.
Gary Leland:
No wonder no one was getting into Bitcoin. It was a lot of work cause that’ll happen. That happens with technology. I mean, Oh my gosh, if you’d have told me, I mean, when I did podcasts, for instance, I had to use an iPod. To download my shows that I listened to the next day took the whole damn day, you know, the whole damn night I had to plug it in or I had nothing to listen to much less picking up my phone and recording a podcast, editing it and uploading it from my phone. I mean that, and that hasn’t been that long and it went from an iPod to a phone, you know? Yeah, that’s fast. So if we keep with it and I think Bitcoin is moving at a faster curve than podcasting for damn sure. Cause no one knew what podcasting was for years, you know?
Stephan Livera:
Yeah. And also the other point you were making about relationships and the people you can meet now that you can’t necessarily, you wouldn’t necessarily be able to do in 5 or 10 years time. I think conferences are a great way for that as well. The chance to meet people in person. And
Gary Leland:
It’s about that. I was going, I told my wife at the beginning of the year, I’m going to more trips this year than I’ve ever gone into my life. I had like seven or eight conferences on a plan. I went to one tones and that was like a week before Corona hit, but we’re gonna to have another one though, at doing an August here. So we’re going into, so I thought I’d just go ahead and yeah,
Stephan Livera:
Let’s go. Let’s go into Bit Block Boom. Tell us about it. I know you’ve got a huge lineup of speakers.
Gary Leland:
Yeah, it’s a Bit Block Boom. It’s the last weekend in August 28th and 29th I think. And this will be our third year and it’s a Bitcoin conference, not a crypto conference. You know, my joke is the first time someone reports you for talking about crypto is I’ll come in and ask you to and not do it again. The second time I’ll take you out in the hallway. And third time you’ll be asked to leave this conference. I want to make that clear to people. You know, if you knew how many sponsors I could have had that I’ve turned away because this is a Bitcoin and I wouldn’t let them come because they are not Bitcoin companies, they’re crypto companies are, it’s amazing, but this will be our third year. And you know, we’ve had to change a lot of things because of the Corona going around.
Gary Leland:
So we were going to have two rooms last two years have been one room. So huge room, it’s a great room with a great state, it’s really a beautiful room. And we were going to have a second room and it was gonna be our tech track this year. But that room is too small for social distancing. So we’re having to do away with that. And just so people, cause if people are wondering, how can you do this during Corona? The room that we’re having it in actually holds like a thousand people. And we’re only going to probably have our numbers. Last year we had last two years, we had that. We sold out at 125 this year we were going to do, we were going to move it up with the two rooms to 300, but now we’re backing it down.
Gary Leland:
And it’ll probably be about 225 to 250. So the rooms made for a thousand. I’ve had them give me drawings of the rooms, what does distancing? And it can, it can be done. A lot of people who went last year, and year before go, how can I hold a thousand people? But they have to realize this room is in three tiers. And we had everything on the bottom tier. And when they think about that, they go you’re right. There were two empty tiers that just looked like walkways, but they were empty tears. So the room we can do, we’re bringing in hand sanitizing stations. Of course we’re giving everybody Bit Block Boom masks, you know, as a, whether they wear them or not, that’s up to them. And then we’re doing things like in the bathrooms where we’re closing half the damn stalls to help with more social distancing last year, by hung out in the hallway, we’re moving that into a big marble area so we can move the tables away.
Gary Leland:
And it’s not a cramped hallway. So we’re trying to do a lot of things to make it as safe as we can. Actually as far as people who’ve bought tickets being worried about it, I guess it’s not a big issue. That’s why I went through only one person in the United States has cancelled, who bought a ticket. Everybody else who’s cancelled has been from out of the country. And they’re worried about getting back. Like you were speaker, they’re worried about getting back now. I’ve had a couple of speakers, other speakers who aren’t coming, but I’ve been able to find great speakers to replace them. I had a waiting list of speakers. We just had, Isaiah Jackson from Bitcoin and Black America we’re adding someone else in the next day or two, I’m just waiting for their headshot. I’ll wait until I get that headshot. But everybody knows who that is. So we’re having no shortage of people wanting to come. And people as if everybody was going, I’m not coming, you know, I want a refund or whatever, then I would’ve thought about it. But since no one’s canceling, I’m like, heck, I’ve probably got more to worry about than anyone else. Who’s there being probably one of the only boomers there, you know? So if I’m willing to go for it, I figure what the hell let’s do it.
Stephan Livera:
Yeah. Cause I can. Yeah, I think to be fair, I think, you know, most people are interested to go and for me I’m very sad that I won’t be able to attend. So for listeners just to let you know, I was initially on as a speaker and I was obviously very excited to come along and to hang out with the guys and meet everyone and you know, just be a part of the conference experience. But unfortunately Australia, the government here is basically locking things down or basically not letting people travel internationally unless there’s certain exceptions. And obviously I wouldn’t meet those exceptions. So I literally cannot fly. Like I bought my flight, I even bought the flight already and it got canceled. So unfortunately I won’t be able to make it. So I’m sorry for listeners.
Gary Leland:
More people usually when I’m at Bit Block Boom, I’m kind of working my ass off. Cause I’m like really a one man show. I mean, I do most of this by myself and I work on it all year, but when I was at Tones conference had so many people come up to me and that was an atmosphere when I wasn’t working that had come to a Bit Block Boom last year and they were all like, Oh my gosh, I couldn’t believe it. I was standing there and I looked over there and they was Saifedean and there was so and so Marty Bent and Oh, these people and I just went over and had a beer and we were hanging out and it was kinda like because of the size of it and because of the crowd, it’s not like the speakers get on stage and talk and then leave.
Gary Leland:
They’re there all day in the crowd sitting around, coming to dinner and stuff. So it’s a really good, I try to make an atmosphere where people are hanging out. I’m not bringing in people to do a talk and leave. I’m bringing people in to speak who want to come to the conference. And I think that makes a big difference in the conference is people coming because they want to be at the conference rather than they just got something they’re pitching, you know, there’s no pitching from the stage. You can’t come up there and talk about, you know, your exchange, for instance, if you, you know, if that was your job, you work in exchange, but you’re talking about Bitcoin. So I think it all adds up, but like I said, we aren’t having any cancellations. Everything is going good. I think with the social distancing that we set up the hotel. And then we’re still looking for sponsors. If anyone wants to sponsor, we’re looking for a hand sanitizing station sponsor right now. I think that’s pretty good sponsor. You have your name over the top of it, looking for a mask sponsor. Everyone will be wearing those masks when they go home the stores, they gotta wear it man. You’d have your, your name all over it. You know? So, but it’s not Bit Block Boom ones.
Stephan Livera:
Yeah. That’s great. And yeah, I mean, you’ve got a great lineup of speakers, so definitely encourage listeners to go. From everything I heard of the conference last year, it was fantastic. So I’m really disappointed. I can’t, I can’t go. I literally, I would come if I could. So
Gary Leland:
Oh I know you would. I know you would. Yeah, I know you would. So that’s a shame so we’ll have you for next year though? Hopefully by next August this damn thing’s over, right? Yeah.
Stephan Livera:
That’s the hope. That’s the hope. So yeah. So look, I guess I guess that’s pretty much it. So did you have anything else you wanted to mention for the listeners and where can listeners find you and bit block Boom online?
Gary Leland:
Well, just find me on Twitter, Gary Leland, all one word and then go to bitblockboom.com. If you want to check that out. All of the information’s there and if anyone is listening, if they could use the code word cousins, COUSINS they’ll get 30% off. Cause they’ll be my cousin. So they’ll get 30% off of the price of that. So try to remember that if you’re thinking about going, but you know, my main thing, I just want to make sure people know is like, don’t expect boomers to jump up and down to buy Bitcoin because if you go God, they can afford it. Then that means they don’t have a reason to jump up and down because they’ve got the money. You just need to walk them into it, take your time slowly, walk them into it, work with it.
Gary Leland:
They don’t mind, like I said, start with, start with Swan. That’s where you start. That was so easy for my guy to do. I couldn’t believe he was. I wasn’t sure he’d be capable of setting it up, but he did. He had to call me two times, but he did set it up and he’s increased his spending, you know, on Swan. It’s cause he’s like, Oh, that’s pretty easy. So that’s a great place to start and don’t jump into a wallet with him, let him get a little bit and get comfortable with it. And then bringing the wallet subject in. You’re throwing too much at em and they can’t handle that much tech at a time.
Stephan Livera:
I think that’s a, that’s not just for boomers. I think that’s for people in general. Sometimes you just gotta one step at a time. Yeah.
Gary Leland:
You lose 300 [inaudible] most viewers that they lose $350 because someone hacked into the exchange. They aren’t going to die and have a heart attack. They’re going to be kind of pissed, but it’s not like it’s going to affect their lifestyle.
Stephan Livera:
Yeah. All right. Well look, Gary, thank you very much for joining me. It was, it was great to chat with you.
Gary Leland:
It’s nice to see you cause I haven’t seen you since San Francisco and hopefully that’ll happen again soon wherever it’s at.
Stephan Livera:
Of course I’m really looking forward to that as well. Yeah.
Gary Leland:
Rooftop meal there.
Stephan Livera:
Yeah, that’s right. It’s the listeners that I met Gary. That was the first time I met Gary. It was that the beef steak in San Francisco in June, 2019. But yeah, so hopefully the conference scene will pick back up and we can start going to all these, at least internationally. We can start going to these next year. We’ll see how it goes with that. But I think that’s basically it from us for this episode. So listen, as you can find me online at stephanlivera.com that’s it. And we’ll see you guys in the citadels.