SLP251 Dan Held HODL Mindset & Bitcoin Finances

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Dan Held rejoins me on the show to chat about HODL mindsets vs spending and mistakes made along the way. You’ll find a lot of value in this episode whether you are a new bitcoiner or an experienced hand. We chat:

  • HODL Mindset
  • Mistakes of spending and trading
  • Using Bitcoin collateralised loans
  • Property market for Bitcoiners
  • Where we’re going

Dan Held links:

Sponsors: 

Saylor Academy Bitcoin For Everybody Course:

Stephan Livera links:

Podcast Transcript:

Stephan Livera:

Dan welcome back to the show.

Dan Held:

Oh, thanks for having me. It’s been a little while.

Stephan Livera:

Exactly man. And it has been crazy. In the last few weeks we’ve had Elon and Tesla buying one and a half billion dollars of Bitcoin. We had a price pump just to around 47,000 USD as we speak right now, it’s around 44,000. What’s your take on the recent few weeks?

Dan Held:

Well, I think it feels like it’s been such a long time because in Bitcoin years with all this price volatility, it definitely ages us. It’s interesting. My girlfriend noticed some gray hair on my chin and I’m 32 years old, so that’s a little bit disconcerting. But no, it’s been wild. I mean I’ve been in this space for years. Seen institutions have seen big corporations come in and buy Bitcoin with their treasury. This is what I’ve been waiting for. This is incredible. I mean, this is validation that Bitcoin is a global store of value asset. It’s honestly, it’s mind blowing. Like it still really hasn’t sunk in for me. How big of a deal this is. I think like my brother and my parents and they are not very into Bitcoin despite being a relative of mine for them it was always, Dan’s got his weird Bitcoin thing.

Dan Held:

And as a Bitcoiner its a kind of an isolating sort of feeling right? Of like you, you see this future and you’re somewhat tortured by it as you’re the only one who gets it. But now I’m seeing not only family members, but like all middle school, high school, college friends. They’re all starting to come out of the woodwork and go like, Oh, it finally makes sense. Now they’re not just going, Hey, should I buy a Bitcoin for like the speculative sort of reason? Like, Hey, should I buy, should I get in now? They’re more of like, I get it, dude. Like I finally get the message I get why Bitcoin’s useful. This is, I think really exciting time to be in Bitcoin,

Stephan Livera:

Of course. And I think this is one of those things when people are a little bit newer. They haven’t had that time to build their conviction. So I think that’s a really good theme and topic to discuss is just this whole HODL mindset, a HODL philosophy. Whatever you want to call it, how people how do you think people should build their HODL conviction?

Dan Held:

That’s a great question. So first to clear things up, my last name is actually my real last name. I didn’t make that up. I think a lot of people think a held is a made up. Last name is my real last name.

Stephan Livera:

You were born to do this thing.

Dan Held:

So it’s like blacksmith with the Smith last name it’s like your last name is your profession. I think it was born to a HODL, man. So now it’s my real last name. It’s a German last name it’s funny is I know no one’s a perfect Hodler. Like I think a lot of people go in and they see folks like myself and others and they’re like, Oh, Dan must have been a perfect HODLer the whole time. No, man, I’m a human. Like in the beginning I tried to day trade a little bit poorly.

Dan Held:

I didn’t do very well. I also traded litecoin. I mind prime coin. I explored around the alts a little bit. This is back 13, 14, 15. So like, no, one’s a perfect HODLer people typically go explore and try things and think they’re smarter than the market, which are not. And that these experiences of pain and feeling making mistakes. This is how you learn your, in the traditional world with relationships work and just learning in general. So with Bitcoin and HODLing, and it’s typically not a very, 100% pure HODL experience, you usually learn through some mistakes that you’ve made, but what’s nice is that you can hear about my mistakes and Stephan’s mistakes and other people’s mistakes and take all those together and hopefully learn from it and hopefully avoid what we did.

Dan Held:

When it comes to HODLing, I think a really important mindset to have is a basic investing mindset of when you buy something plan to HODL it for five to 10 years, I don’t care if you’re buying a house or a car or stock or Bitcoin, that investment philosophy. And this is why I think we’re going to touch on later in is a philosophy. This is an important mindset to have is you’re convicted in the trade. You’re convicted and utilizing the asset over a long period of time or investing in something for a long period of time. And when it comes to Bitcoin HODL and you really just have to divorce yourself from the emotion of those day-to-day swings, am I mentally impacted by the day-to-day swings?

Dan Held:

Yes, but I’m so divorced from it by now to where it’s numbers for me. Right. It’s not really like I’m not looking at the numbers and I’m like, Oh, I can go buy something or I could buy this or that, or, Oh, no, I lost this or that. I don’t feel that way about it for me. It’s just more of like a scoreboard where I’m like, okay, I’m more right on my investment thesis. So I think that that’s a very important element of a HODL mindset is the classic investors mindset of long-term investing, I think is definitely a pillar of that.

Stephan Livera:

Of course. And a common thing that I hear when I talk to him or new Bitcoiners is they come to me and say stuff like, Oh, is now the time to try and sell out and buy a bit cheaper. And they’re stuck in this very short term sort of mindset. And I’m often having to coach them back in that way of saying. No, this is a long-term thing. Think of it as minimum, like absolute minimum is four years. And really you should be thinking even longer than that. But it’s a common thing. And I can understand when people are a little bit new and maybe they get a bit shaken and let’s say they hear some bad news. So was it easy for you and me, Dan? Did we just never have to deal with any bad news?

Dan Held:

No, look, we all had bad news. I mean, I went through, okay, first of all, there’s the silk road bust. That was a big deal. I mean, Bitcoin, I remember seeing that happen in big, seen Bitcoin’s price plummet. We had Mt. Gox shutdown and at Mt. Gox was 90% of trading volume, put this in context. This would be like Coinbase Binance, Kraken, BitfinexaAnd Bitstamp all going down at the same time. So I don’t think people were really when you look back, you’re like, Oh, it was obvious. I should have bought Bitcoin when it was $10 or a hundred dollars, but there was a lot more risk then. And there’s a lot more stress and uncertainty and do there was no, there literally no podcasts. There was no YouTube channels. There were a few articles. So there wasn’t really a good way to reinforce the faith and belief in Bitcoin.

Dan Held:

Now we’ve got so much great content like this podcast and other friends we’ve got in this space. It was just on Peter McCormick’s and we all, I think you guys produce such great content now and you’ve got there’s so great thinkers. It’s kind of funny I didn’t consider myself a public speaker or a writer until two years ago. And I’ve, so this is a word of encouragement of saying that you, everyone is part of Bitcoin’s marketing machine. We can all help talk about Bitcoin in our own way, whether it be creating art, talking about it on a podcast, creating a podcast or anything else. For me, I just, it’s been a wonderful explosion to see this content created to reinforce the belief of the HODLer before it was such a lonely experience where like, there weren’t that many of us there weren’t very many physical meetups and I lived in San Francisco and there wasn’t a lot of great content.

Dan Held:

So when these traumatic or negative incidents occurred just wasn’t a lot of like sounding board other than the pure faith you had in your own head over being confident and trusting that Bitcoin was going to bounce back. So we’ve never been in a better spot. I mean, fundamentally like all the on chain data looks phenomenal, trading volume looks great. Public narrative is phenomenal. And then of course the alignment of all of the content to reinforce the HODL or belief it’s never been a better time to be a HODLer.

Stephan Livera:

Right. And I think that’s one of the interesting points that you mentioned is sometimes bad news would happen. But then if you were following the space closely enough, and maybe you knew some insiders, people would look at things like. Actually look at the HODL waves. There’s like some real big coiling up of long-term demand or long-term HODLers. And what might superficially seem like, Oh, no, it’s all over. If you talk to the insiders, they’re all running to buy more. Like, I think a good example of this is March, 2020 when Bitcoin crashed from whatever it was not eight or 9,000 or something down to maybe at the absolute bottom around three or 4,000, all the hardcore inside people I knew were running to buy more at that time. But if you looked at an outsider, what were they doing?

Dan Held:

What was funny though, is, I mean, we didn’t have memes like stack sats, and DCA. Like, those weren’t even mems. It was mainly just HODL. Because it was so volatile and there wasn’t enough content to like help reinforce that faith HODL, just like, you’re sort of like, just hold the line, we’re just going to hold the line and survive. I think it’s a much more positive, much more, I think, proactive narrative of DCA, buy the dip, all those, all those sort of mems that I think these are so much fun to these sort of narratives and these mems, these rallying cries. I mean this is the modern day equivalent to like a battle cry, right? Is HODL or buy the dip or a stack sats. It’s really fun.

Stephan Livera:

Of course. And I think the other element that can come and many listeners may be in this position now, obviously, as we are now current price around 44,000 as we speak, many of them would have bought far cheaper than this. What’s the incentive now. And why should they continue HODLing rather than spending some of that down?

Dan Held:

Yeah. Great question. So when I think about how I approach my own Bitcoin HODL, there there’s no right or wrong way to do it. I think a wrong way would be to actively day trade, but there’s no like if you HODL for a long time and I’m a very vocal anti spend your Bitcoin sort of person, I think got quite the reputation around me, vehemently against spending your coin. What I’m vehemently against is you spending your coin on something trivial, like a Spotify subscription, just because you can. If you want to use Bitcoin’s immutability properties to buy something that’s illegal or something. Congratulations, you’ve used Bitcoin as it’s intended or if you want to store value in it and then have your purchasing power increase and then take some of that out later, that’s fine too, but do it for something important. I want to HODL my coins for as long as I can and never sell any, that’s my objective. However, I am a human being after all and I will need to eventually eat and sleep somewhere. So I have to come up with some method and we’ll cover that a little bit later, maybe around like the lending and borrowing side of –

Stephan Livera:

What do you mean? You don’t just live in a cardboard box?

Dan Held:

I live on the blockchain. I live inside the block. So yeah when there’s life events, everyone’s got partners that may or may not be as invested as they are in Bitcoin. You can die a lonely existence with all your coins, but eventually you probably need to spend them on something important, a son or daughter’s wedding, a house, a car, whatever it may be. And that’s what I meant by there’s no wrong or right way to do it. Everyone has a life event where they might need to take some money off the table to feel comfortable, to sleep better, to buy something they’ve always wanted. I think it’s always measured, right? There’s no, there’s no black and white version of this now, would I ever sell anything close to like half or anything close to a majority of my coins? Never. I would never, I could never ever live with that.

Dan Held:

And to be frank, by the way, for me like taking money off the table on a personal level, like I’ve been in eight years, right? So for me, my investment thesis was Bitcoin is gold 2.0, and we are just now touching upon that. And I would consider a hundred thousand to half a million dollars a coin as having partially realized that objective. For me, I’m not going to look at taking money off the table necessarily. It’s more of like, and that’s why I’m so into lending and borrowing. I currently have an Unchained capital loan where I borrow dollars against my Bitcoin as collateral. I do expect those interest rates to go down over time. Because it’s a bit high to service and that’s not any fault on their part. But then on the lending side, I’ve gotten a lot of criticism for that too, but I’m like, guys, I’ve hodled for eight years.

Dan Held:

I don’t want to spend my coin and I’m willing to risk them to earn that yield. And that’s a subjective journey that everyone has to think through and I’m not going to hard shill it here, but that’s the reason why I do it is I hobbled a long time and I’d rather not sell them and I’m willing to take the risk. And my dream is what if I’d never had to sell my Bitcoin ever, and I could just live off of the interest or borrow against it. And as I borrow against it, the dollars I borrowed those drop in value in my Bitcoin increases in value, which makes the loan very serviceable. So to each their own, I don’t think there’s any shame in a Bitcoiner selling their coin at some moment. Again, you have to live you have to have a life, there’s moments when any, especially with partners. I know whether you’re a man or woman your other partner may not be as convicted or obsessed as you are in Bitcoin.

Dan Held:

And that’s just a fact of life and that’s going to be a fact for a lot of things. You may not be into what they’re into as well. So don’t feel shame if you have to. I think there’s a lot of ways that I’ve been thinking through to mitigate the moment when I have to sell my coin for a life event where I can meet a little bit more creative. So that’s why I’ve been really obsessed on the yield side, the borrowing side, just I’m trying to figure out every way I can not to sell my coins, but to also live a decent life.

Stephan Livera:

Of course, I mean, we don’t live forever. So ultimately it is a balancing act between HODLing as hard and long as you possibly can so that you can accumulate wealth and pass that onto your children and so on. But then also, you have to live somewhere and you have to and you also don’t want to go the other way. Sometimes you hear those stories of people, and this is in the more normal personal finance world. You hear these stories of people who’ve worked so hard and they saved their whole lives. And then they retire at 60 or 65 or whatever. And then unfortunately they passed away six months later and they never got the chance to actually enjoy that wealth. And so it’s ultimately it is a balance.

Stephan Livera:

But as you rightly point out, I think there are ways that you can minimize the impact and try to push off the selling down of coins or the use of those spending of those coins into the future. And I think that whole loan idea now disclosure Unchained Capital and also Hodl Hodl Lend, they are sponsors of my show. But I think it is interesting and important to discuss those as options. So maybe you want to talk a little bit about how did you go about researching that idea of using the unchanged loan and no, why was that an option you pursued?

Dan Held:

So and yeah, so with unchanged, what you can do is you can borrow dollars against your Bitcoin as collateral. And I began my journey, I think around October, November, 2019 with this loan. So I’ll give you the the emotional swings of it. So for those who are thinking about doing it, it’s not all easy. And there are certain moments when you have want to jump off a bridge and there’s certain moments when you feel like you’re a genius. So, okay. You want to borrow dollars against your Bitcoin for two reasons. One is you need the dollars to fund something in the real world, buy a home, buy a car, pay for groceries, or you want to go levered with your coin. And that’s what I did. I took the dollars and I bought more Bitcoin. So I’m actually over a hundred percent of my net worth in Bitcoin.

Dan Held:

Which I’ve been a little bit reluctant to mention, just cause it, people already think I’m nuts at a hundred percent, but I’m like, well I’m over 100%. So I bought more Bitcoin with it. So I took out Unchained Capital loan Bitcoin price at the time was around $7,000 a coin. So I took out this loan of very over collateralised. I looked at the never looked back price. It was built. I forget who built it. I used that as a rough approximation for my max LTV calculation. So I’m like, okay, what’s like, based on historical drawdowns. What’s the max pain I can endure before I get margin called what a margin call is if the loan’s value becomes such a large portion of the collateral. The lender gets worried that you’re not going to be able to pay it back.

Dan Held:

And that’s why they have the collateral. So they have to sell part of your collateral to pay down that, pay down that loan balance to make, to put your loan back in a better LTV ratio. So everything was fine and dandy for a while until March 12th. Yeah, March 12th, 2020, we had the liquidity crunch and Bitcoin went down to 3,800. I had over collateralised my loan in such a way that I was safe, but I know a couple other friends that day that called me and they were in a panic. I was even in a panic too, because I’m like, well, the value of my collateral keeps dropping and I can’t wire any money to pay off the loan because I’d rather just do that at that point. And if it wicks down to like a thousand dollars, just for a minute, it could be liquidated even about if it bounces back in just a minute.

Dan Held:

So that was a really scary moment, a moment that I’ll never forget. It’s a moment. I don’t think anyone else is probably gonna experience something like that. Again, I doubt we see that again happen in Bitcoin, but that was a, that was the whole world is panicking around COVID. I mean, there was a liquidity crunch. I don’t think we ever see that moment happen again, but certainly it speaks to the fact that like you should appropriately structure your loan to value ratio. So for example, you can post like, I think at a minimum it’s like 2X, the amount of collateral versus the loan’s value, you might want to do 3X or 4X. I even went higher than that. It was a moment to where like, it gets pretty scary when that happens.

Dan Held:

So I think like structuring the LTV is critical when you’re thinking about borrowing. The second part of this is there’s three parts of it would be the LTV ratio would be and the interest. How much are you paying to service this loan with Unchained capital and most other lenders in the space it’s quite high between five and 10%. I believe long-term these rates will likely go down to be between 1 to 2%. If you look at like margin on traditional brokerages, interactive brokers, you can get 75 bips. If you borrow over, I think a quarter million dollars against your equities as collateral. So I don’t see why Bitcoin wouldn’t have the same sort of structure, especially given that Bitcoin is a pristine piece of collateral. So long-term, I think these interest rates will go down significantly, which will, I think will fuel, that what Pierre Rochard has been saying all along the speculative attack against the dollar and other Fiat, as we just all borrow Fiat.

Dan Held:

And we have Bitcoin as our asset and collateral. So interest rates are an important one. It’s really hard to get a really a lower interest rate places that offer you a lower interest rate. And this goes into my third pillar. If they offer you a lower interest rate, what they’re doing with their rehypothecating the collateral. So for example blockfi does this with your collateral. So they’ll take out your collateral and then lend to that collateral out. Now this is advantageous for the borrower because now you pay 5% interest rate instead of 10. I’m not necessarily recommending that. I personally don’t do that. That’s why I went with Unchained and I pay basically double the interest rate. Unchained capital does not rehypothecate Bitcoin. And you can actually see the address where your bitcoin is stored, which is really cool.

Dan Held:

It is way more expensive. It’s basically double the servicing rate. Again, I do that because I understand the risk I’m taking there much more so than the risk I’m taking with like a blockfi where they’re taking out the collateral and lending it. And I don’t know who they’re lending it to. I’m not saying that like one, that one company is better than another, it’s just a different type of risk. So when it comes to borrowing against your coin, keep in mind, you’ve got LTV. So make sure it’s well, collateralised the servicing of the debt depending on your loan size, but it could be pretty material to make sure you can pay that interest rate. And then finally you need to make the decision between rehypothecated and not rehypothecated.

Stephan Livera:

Right of course. And I think a few interesting considerations that I’m thinking about there, you want to, obviously it depends how many coins you’ve got and so on. But I think an important consideration also is that you want to try, if you can, you want to do it only with a small percentage of your stack, rather than like trying to lever up with a huge amount of your stack. So that way, if you needed to put additional Bitcoin in to not get liquidated, then you can more easily do that. And you’re not risking like a big part of your stack if you will. And also I understand that recently Unchained capital are looking to change that collateral requirement. So I think now if you start up a loan, I think it will be at a 250%. I think partly spurred by what happened in March. So there are a few things around that. And then I guess you’ve also generally you would need to have income to be able to service that interest. So I guess those are probably some of the main considerations, right?

Dan Held:

Totally. And think about it too. Like if you don’t structure this properly, they will have to sell your Bitcoin to pay the loan. And that could be a very traumatic moment. And I think Stephan you brought up a great point around size don’t risk. Your whole stack on chain capital still could be hacked right there. Hold your Bitcoin as collateral, but what if they have an issue or what if the government seizes the coin? There can still be issues with the non rehypothecated method for any of these, whether you lend or borrow never ever use your whole stack. I think that’s just really risky. You should always have some portion of your coin. Of course given that you understand private key management correctly, almost all of your coin should be self custody at all times. When you do lending or borrowing, you are giving up the custodian or the custodianship of your coins.

Dan Held:

To keep that in mind about this, that I would never risk anything to I wouldn’t do half or I wouldn’t do anything. I wouldn’t even do half. I wouldn’t do a majority of your coins. I do it with something this is also the way I think about my own private key management, have a blend of custodial and non-Custodial enough to where it’s a trust gradient of yourself. If you are completely trusting in your own self custody method, fantastic that you should do full self custody. If you’re not have a gradient of where you put coins in terms of custodians versus non-custodial environments so much so that you’re not going to jump off a bridge if one or the other messes up. I have been around for eight years, most Bitcoiners coins. I know that have been lost are due to poor private key management on a self custody basis.

Dan Held:

Now I very much encourage people to do self custody. I’m just saying it’s not necessarily a binary thing where we want to push people to do it until they’re ready. Just make sure whatever sort of lending, borrowing, private key management structure you have. I would never put it all in one. We, even with your own private key management setup, I would never put all my coins in one private key management setup on. So I think that applies as well to the custodial arrangements too. You’d never put all of your coins into an Unchained Capital loan or all into blockfi lending be smart about it. Like do whatever you need to do to make sure that if something catastrophic happens, you’re going to be in a survivable mental state. Yeah,

Stephan Livera:

Of course. And I think someone thinking might someone listening might be thinking, Oh, why do all this stuff? Like, what’s the benefit really? But I think the main benefit in this case is you are pushing off the actual moment in which you have to spend those coins down or sell those coins down. And if you do that, you can maintain your exposure to Bitcoin, right? So ultimately historically Bitcoin is doing over 200% per year on a, like a CAGR cumulative annualised growth rate basis. Like if you talk about like the last 10 years or so so I think it’s depending on the maths and how it would otherwise work out. If you had to sell and pay capital gains tax on that and all those kinds of considerations, that’s where I guess the benefit comes in because you’re pushing off the spending of coin into one year, two years, three years into the future. And then potentially there’s also that option around rolling that loan forward. And so if you were to do it now and then the price has gone up and then you roll the loan, that’s another whole way of pushing off the loan pushing off the sale as long as you can fund the interest. And you’re comfortable with the percentage that you’re putting in there, right?

Dan Held:

Yeah, totally. You can continue to roll these loans going forward. You don’t have to necessarily close them out or not. Not for example, like I have a two year term, let’s say at the end of two years. I wanted to do another two years. They would just roll that into another two year loan. Yeah you are right. So the, the primary function here is either to borrow dollars to utilize it for some pressing need or to go levered, to buy more coin. Either way is a good way to do this. What we’re avoiding is that capital gains we are avoiding the sale of our Bitcoin. So we’re avoiding the FOMO of of a bull run if the price continued to go up. And also where its a tax advantageous structure where when you borrow against your coin, there’s not a taxable gains event.

Dan Held:

So the IRS isn’t like, Oh, you sold your coin. You owe us taxes. This is a loan. There’s actually something really interesting too. Now you need to consult a tax attorney, your CPA on this as I am not a financial advisor, but in the US if you borrow against an asset and then use those proceeds to go invest in something else, sometimes that is considered. I think investment interest, which is tax deductible, which means that you can deduct the interest that you pay on the loan against your income, which is really cool.

Stephan Livera:

Right. So it’s like a double Whammy benefit then. Yeah. So there’s a lot of, I guess, interesting considerations there, because I guess it is coming back to that idea of, well, if you have a life event and maybe you need to. I guess, buy a car to get around, or maybe you want to buy a house to raise your family and things like that. But I guess even there, there are ways of really thinking through whether you absolutely have to spend that thing. And also even with, I mean, I don’t know what you think, Dan, but I’m curious actually, because in Australia it’s like this huge property cult, it’s a massive like, Oh, everyone’s got to buy a property. And it just, to me seems like a huge bubble, and everyone just kind of pumps their bags onto the next generation. And so it just feels like as a millennial, as you and I are, it’s like, we’re being very much encouraged to buy the property bags of people in the generations above us when that’s not necessarily the most efficient way to tie up our capital. I mean from you, and from our perspective, it’s better to be exposed to Bitcoin. And if you can, to rent.

Dan Held:

Oh man I struggle with this a lot. For me, like every, like the home as an investment is such a classic idea, both in Australia and the US it’s just, it’s like a, given people go, you grow up, you find someone, you love, you have kids, and then you buy a house. That’s just like it’s like a part of life almost. And with Bitcoin, of course, after being orange pilled, you start to question everything, both nutrition, science guidelines, money, everything, right. And then when it comes to homes, I’m like, well why would I buy a home? They we’ve got also, you’ve got some like population structural problems that I think indicate that I think like the period for buying a home. Might’ve been, the peak periods were in the higher growth population areas where like now population growth is very much slowing across the world, which means that if you’ve got a fixed supply of homes or an increasing supply of homes and demand stays the same or slightly decreases, that’s not exactly a great supply demand model for that asset, right?

Dan Held:

Like you’ve got with Bitcoin, we’ve got 21 million and a massive amount of folks of demand that it hasn’t come in yet with property. We’ve got a ton of supply that people already live in and more supply coming in. If populations go flat, then that’s not a great future for that now. So we’ve got that in the more negative side of the equation. You also have a lot of expenses with homes. You’ve got maintenance costs, insurance. You want to go refinish the kitchen because you want new cabinets or something homes aren’t cheap. And then on the more positive side, if you’ve got to pay rent, you’re technically paying a margin over what that mortgage costs to the original home purchaser. So you’re paying a little extra spread to live there and not be mentally invested in owning it and paying the mortgage and what not.

Dan Held:

So you’re not there’s no free lunch. You’re still paying rent and you’re still having to pay for it. And then also property is typically a good inflation hedge. In a higher inflationary environment, gold Bitcoin and property would likely go up. So it’s not exactly like, but here’s the thing is the opportunity cost against Bitcoin, nothing compares. Exactly. And it’s perpetual, I just can’t get out of my head and it drives me nuts because I just can’t think of any other way to do it other than just to keep HODLing Bitcoin and borrowing against it. Right. Like, I just don’t see an alternative. It’s something to where, like when I was younger, when I was 13, 14, that was like my dream. Right. And buy an apartment, especially, I mean, out here in San Francisco, a nice apartment is five to $8 million.

Dan Held:

Which is an incredibly massive amount of money. But that’s that’s a little bit, a lot of people feel like they’ve made it as like at the home, right. The apartment the beautiful home. So I get it. It’s something I mentally struggle with. I rent by the way I rent in San Francisco. And I will be by the way, I’m moving to Austin in a couple of months and we’ll be renting there. So I haven’t made up my mind yet. I don’t want to sell my coins also, but the idea of servicing like an interest only loan against my Bitcoin at like 10%, that’s really expensive. Because mortgage also mortgages are tax advantaged. So you can write off the mortgage interest. So the interest you pay on your mortgage is tax deductible typically depends on the geo that you’re in again. Consult a tax professional that, and the interest rates are super low.

Dan Held:

It’s like 2% or 3% or something. Now it’s insane. So properties have been like artificially pumped up as this investment because governments have given crazy sort of awesome incentive packages to buy homes. They allow deductible interest payments. They allow the rates are really low. And then there’s other crazy where, like, I think in the US it depends on, I think this is a federal mandate or federal like IRS guidance. I think certain amount of capital gains appreciation in your home is tax-free. So they’ve essentially created a massive bubble in the home market by having these crazy tax advantaged structures for home buyers. Because after the 1940s, after world war II, it was like, well, let’s go build America, get a home, have babies, and go work nine to five. And yeah, I definitely feel like Bitcoin has made me deeply questioned the idea of ever owning a home. It’s something I struggle with, especially over the last couple of months. I’m in my thirties and eventually I want to start a family and stuff, and I’m like, well, a home it seems like a good idea, but then I’m like, well, I don’t know if I want to borrow that much against my Bitcoin as collateral. And then I’m also like, I don’t know if I don’t want to sell any of my coins. So I struggle with it quite a bit.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. I think these are questions that probably many Bitcoiners are thinking about. And I would say we have to also consider what’s capital efficient, right? So if you want to tie up a lot of your capital into homes, then you’re less exposed to Bitcoin and Bitcoin is going up so much faster. It’s like you don’t, you want to minimize them holding that property shitcoin – now look, I mean, it’s, yeah –

Dan Held:

Yea that property shitcoin. Bitcoin is like the only asset you really own Bitcoin and gold because it’s an asset that you like custody of the asset gives you ownership. Like when you own home, you don’t really own the home. You own the title to the home that the local government enforcers that can take it away from you at a whim. So that’s, I think particularly scary as well. Like after having held Bitcoin, I’m like, I love this thing. This thing is incredible. Like, Oh, and with stocks, as we saw with Robinhood, the T plus two settlement time, you don’t actually like you don’t actually, the brokerage owns the stock. You just have a claim over it with your brokerage. It’s homes are kind of the same thing. You technically own the home and you have title to the home, but that title is enforced by the local region. And that’s kind of a scary proposition too.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. And I think the other thing that really comes to my mind is the sovereign individual thesis. Right? It’s like, if people try and look for a better deal, whether that’s in another state or in another country even and try to play that Geoarbitrage game. A lot of people are working remote anyway. So why not try and get a better deal for yourselves and for your family, if you can, if it’s available to you. That’s also something that plays on my mind as well. I mean, and look in fairness, it’s not like we can all just live in a cardboard box, like you have to live somewhere. And one of the main, I guess, concerns would also be around, well, okay. If I rent, I can’t do as much with the property and maybe there’s the risk of being evicted. And I mean, these are things you have to think through, but I guess for many people renting has been a better option if that allows you to maximize your exposure to Bitcoin.

Dan Held:

Totally. Yeah. It’s very case dependent. I hope the takeaway here, isn’t that, like I’m saying never buy a home. I’m saying, I don’t know if I want to or not. And I still haven’t made up my mind. It’s, it’s really tough. I mean, look, the perfect, the perfect scenario. Here’s the perfect scenario. Bitcoin keeps going up for forever. I borrow dollars and I buy all sorts of real-world assets that I need for various things, buy a home, buy a car, and Bitcoin just keeps going up in price and the loan becomes easier to service, so that’s my dream, but there’s a lot of price volatility in between and that’s where it all comes back to the LTV ratios. If you don’t have that properly structured, you could have a really catastrophic event where you got to part with your precious Bitcoin at a price a lot lower than you were willing to sell them at.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. I think those are, that’s a really nice way to summarize it. And I think just more broadly as our Bitcoiner thesis is essentially that many other assets are very overvalued. And so it’s kind of like, why do you want to buy the asset that’s overvalued. Do you want to wait until it comes down? And it’s more devalued and kind of brought back to that, brought back to earth in some sense. And then that is what enables you to then like theoretically after most of the gains have come, let’s say post hyperbitcoinization. Now I know people can’t necessarily wait that long, but you’ve just got to manage that process as best you can and push it off because you really don’t want to miss out on those gains. And I think it might be a good point to talk a little bit about prior mistakes that you’ve seen, maybe you don’t have to talk about your own stuff, but what you’ve heard about out there when people were bending coins early and what were some of the mistakes that you saw around spending early?

Dan Held:

Yeah, I mean, so I was around during the time of the payments narrative that was really persistent and pervasive due to the amount of fundraising on the Silicon Valley side too you couldn’t raise money to be like, yeah, we’re going to overthrow a global store of wealth of gold and dollars. And VCs are like, what the fuck are you talking about? That wasn’t going to that pitch doesn’t fly, but disrupting PayPal, that’s a lot easier to fundraise on. So in 13, 14, that’s what a lot of the companies in this space fundraised on. And we were out trying to like make that work right like at blockchain.com. I built the first merchant app the kind of like a merchant payment, like a POS terminal. And we would go try to get people to use it. I mean, I was there with Roger at different dinners, man.

Dan Held:

I mean, I was there for a lot of dinners out in New York where the headquarters is at and trying to see him convince different merchants to accept Bitcoin. I mean, look the whole payments thing, like don’t spend your Bitcoin on something trivial just because it’s kind of fun. And you’re like, cool. I quote unquote used it, its most highest utility is in a very hard to seize store value asset and its immutability. Immutability means sending it or doing a transaction that would otherwise be prohibited. That’s why it’s useful, use it for those two things. I’m using it for like a trivial payment. I think just kind of like, it’s just a really great way to literally throw your coins away and the folks that go say, Oh, well just spend and replace: Cool. Well now you’ve just incurred capital gains.

Dan Held:

So you’ve actually, it’s a very expensive transaction both on now you owe taxes on that loss. Whenever you buy back, you’d have to pay bips on the exchange to buy it. And you’ve also paid a transaction fee. So you’re like a little razorblade cuts to your stack. Just to support some trivial idea of like this is using Bitcoin. If you need to use Bitcoin for large values that you need to send to pay contractors or pay business deals or move money or buy big assets. That makes sense if that’s the only way that you can do that versus using Fiat again, Bitcoin’s value prop is store of value and immutable in terms of like the immutable transactions. So my word of caution would just be like, just don’t do it for look, I did a bunch of trivial stuff like, Oh man, I mean all sorts of things.

Dan Held:

I bought certain things that costs like a dozen coins sort of. There was even a hundred Bitcoin transaction one time where I’m like, oh man I found an old wallet, dat file every Bitcoin or does this in the bull run, they go and they start going through all their old computers, trying to find like an old wallet dat file or a password or something. And I found an old wallet dat file and I’m like, Ooh, alright this could get interesting. And I opened it and I somehow your guests the password. And I was like, Oh, alright, this is getting really fun. And then I saw the transaction log. I was like,

Stephan Livera:

Oh man, brutal.

Dan Held:

Look like every Bitcoiner I know has always regretted spending their coin. Always.

Dan Held:

You’ll find a couple of people on Twitter. They go, Oh, I thought it was fun. They’re definitely cringing in the closet. Worried about like, thinking about how much they’ve wasted on it. Or they’re using that as a coping mechanism. You’ve got the most, you’ve got the best investment ever in human history in terms of price appreciation. Of course you’re going to live with regret when you spend it. So look, if you need to spend it on the car, that home you’ve always wanted again, those big lifestyle or changes that I encourage you to just explore deeply while you’re doing it. But don’t feel guilty doing that. Just don’t spend it on like a Starbucks or spending on a Spotify. It just doesn’t make any sense to do that. Yeah.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. And a common thing that I notice in some people is what’s that saying? It’s like idle hands are the devil’s play thing. Right? It’s like, people just feel like they have to do something with their Bitcoin when the simplest and it’s like in their minds they think can it really be that simple? Like literally just buy it and secure it and HODL it and that can it really be that simple?

Dan Held:

Don’t touch it. It’s that’s actually really fricking hard to do is not touch it because there’s always things you want to go by. It. There’s always reasons why you might want to panic, sell or FOMO buy or trade, or there’s a new crypto asset that you became enamored with and you want to trade Bitcoin for it because you think you can time the market or you think it’s going to flippen Bitcoin. I think that, yeah, it just, it’s kind of funny. There’s a, I think I forget what the exact story is, but there’s a story about how, what the end of the kind of like the end of work will be and the end of work, what it’ll be as there’s a computer or machines that do everything. And then there’s a human sitting there and to fix the machines. But then there’s also a dog and the dog is there to keep the human from touching the machine. That’s the end of work. Once we automate everything with robots, that’s the end of work, but with Bitcoin and HODLing, and it’s kind of the same thing, like just don’t touch it to keep your human emotions away from the Bitcoin. As long as you can do that, as long as you can divorce your human emotions away from the Bitcoin, the larger your stack will be the more, the more purchasing power you’re going to have and the better potential future lifestyle you may be able to live.

Stephan Livera:

Right. And one more tip that I can think of now is if you make, if you can, this is James Clear, Atomic Habits, inspired idea. But if you want to discourage a behavior in advance, why don’t you make it hard for yourself to do that? So in this example, if you can make it hard for yourself to spend. So for example, if you have a Multisig setup and you’ve got the keys distributed in different locations, where if you were to spend a large amount of coin, you would have to go to those locations and make it hard for yourself to spend. So that is another example where you can make it easy to HODL by making it hard to spend.

Dan Held:

I think that’s a great idea. I love James Clear by the way, his Atomic Habits is a great book for folks who haven’t heard about it. I recommend reading it. Look, we are all humans at the end of the day, we have these animal urges and we just need to understand that we’re going to have those need a plan around them. I think that’s the TLDR of these habit building formulas is you’re like, okay, I know it’s just like, you want that, cupcake or that cake, right. It’s bad for you, but you’re like, well maybe if I work out and then I reward myself with it, that’s a better way than just like saying no cake at all. All sorts of ways to deal with these urges that we have definitely think making it an onerous process is key.

Dan Held:

If you just have it sitting on an exchange, it’s very tempting where you can just go click the sell or buy button. I think that’s a really dangerous place to hold it just because of the temptation. You’re at the place where you can go trade it to anything else you’d like, including Fiat. And that’s a temptation that you probably don’t want to have. So definitely private key management in terms of like having a rigorous set up makes the process a little bit more onerous to where you it’s just going to be a lot more difficult for you to give into those urges.

Stephan Livera:

Right. And an example is maybe you are regularly stacking and then you’re stacking it into that cold storage setup. And you are in essence, clearing it out of your personal, like you might, as an example, have a warm wallet that you receive coins into because maybe you get paid in Bitcoin or whatever. And then you need to periodically flush that out into your cold storage, which is the one where it’s hard to spend from.

Dan Held:

I think that’s a great way to think about it too. I definitely think about it from like a savings and checking account perspective or hot and cold wallet, kind of the same thing. Cold wallet is like, you’re checking into your savings account, hot wall. It’s kind of like your checking account. So if you’ve got new coins coming in heaven forbid you’re spending the coins, but let’s say you want to spend the coins to the hot wallets a little bit more flexible for you to be able to send coins out of there and be able to access those coins in a timely fashion. Yeah, I definitely think like private key management is both like a combination of like resisting your temptations, structuring it to where you don’t have catastrophic risk either by yourself or by a third-party custodian. And as well, just like having like a sliding scale of like accessibility.

Dan Held:

For example, with my Unchained capital loan, I wouldn’t be able to add the based on my private key management structure. It wasn’t gonna be able to access my additional collateral to post for the loan if the value kept dropping. So that was right. So that’s a scary moment when you go, okay. Well, my private key management also needs to take into effect accessibility. If I’ve got a situation where I need liquidity immediately. I mean that situation I had not planned for granted, I think it’s a very rare situation, but that’s something to think about if you’ve got like one of these collateralised loans is, well. You’ve got this cold storage setup, you’ve got extra coins sitting on the side, just in case, that because you’d like to do self custody, but if that Unchained capital loan, if it gets close to the margin call, you might need to go access that to deposit more Bitcoin as collateral. If that’s in a really remote spot, that’s hard to get to, you could be in a rough situation, which I faced in that moment. So yeah, it, private key management and in HODLing coins is a simple function of just HODLing, but the method of doing it is quite a bit more complicated.

Stephan Livera:

Right? Yeah. I think that’s a very good point. You made it there that if you are going to enter into a loan arrangement, now you have to think about being able to quickly access coins if that were to ever happen. And then how would you deposit more coins in? So I guess you’re right there. Whereas if the person is just doing a very simple, like no leverage, no loans, no nothing, literally just HODLing, just that’s where they, it makes sense to make it really inaccessible in some sense, right? Obviously you still want to spend them someday. You still want to have them available to you. Right. You don’t want to like not think about it at all. And like never even check the check, the storage and check things. But I guess, yeah, that’s an interesting and important consideration there.

Stephan Livera:

So in terms of things, other things that might cause us to disHODL probably narratives and like how what’s the what’s going on in the media, what’s going on in the world. So as we speak today, it’s February, 2021 and it looks like we’re on top of the world and all these companies are running into buy Bitcoin and probably there’s going to be a whole bunch more coming in. But what are some of the narratives that you see coming over the next call it, one year or so, that might cause people to dis HODL?

Dan Held:

Yeah. Well, let’s talk about some that already happened, man. Tether FUD has gotten got really intense there for a couple of weeks, lots of tether FUD. Right. and that’s where I view my role. I actually started writing by the way, because I got so annoyed with the Fud around that Bitcoin that Bitcoin handlers weren’t like that only devs mattered and that HODLers didn’t matter Naval Ravikant said that back in 2018 and I got so triggered by it. That’s what started me to write that. That’s what that was the moment that’s where the first article I ever wrote was hot colors of the revolutionaries because I was like, this is, but hodlers play an incredibly important part. I can’t believe this misinformation exists, that I then wrote proof of work as efficient and other articles because I just got so triggered by these narratives where I’m like, these are ridiculous where I’m like, I view myself as a FUD buster.

Dan Held:

Buster is kind of a fun way to do it. There’s a bunch of us. We all, we all do it. Nic Carter is a legendary FUD Buster. He’s a very eloquent one too. And yeah, so we’ve seen over the last month the tether FUD and proof of work is wasteful fired. Those have been the two predominant FUD narratives. These ones are easily debunked and are immaterial. So I don’t really consider them a big issue. FUD, it’s important to fight FUD and bust FUD because if you let FUD spiral out of control, and if people’s aggregate opinion about Bitcoin changes, it’s reflexive. So like Bitcoin’s price goes up and people have more faith in it and people trust in it. And people don’t believe in the FUD. If the FUD leads to a downward spiral and price downward spiral and everything else, then if you, the only way to kill Bitcoin is if you make everyone stop believing in it right in FUD is it’s not an additive function to the belief.

Dan Held:

It’s a detractive function from belief. So fighting FUD I think fights and protects Bitcoin. That’s why I do it also. I’m a little bit argumentative, so it’s kind of fun. And so yeah, when it comes to those two pieces of FUD I put out some content with my newsletter to cover some of those. The Tether ones was something that I hadn’t tackled previously. So I just wanted to go about that one comprehensively, the future FUD that we’re going to hear about one will be, which is silly to see this one, but like Janet Yellen said like, Oh, we need to look at cryptocurrencies because their use in money laundering and drugs. And I’m like, what are you talking about? That that’s a very old piece of fire, but I’ve got a feeling we’re going to have to fight it again.

Dan Held:

Luckily, we’re going to have companies like Tesla, MicroStrategy in tons of huge macro traders on our side of this time. So it should be a lot easier versus this niche group of nerds which is what we were so Bitcoins, FUD fighters or FUD busters are, it’s a much louder voice, much more pedigreed voice this time around. But I would suspect that one, we have to fight again. We’re going to have to fight around Bitcoin’s fairness. I’m assuming that narrative will kind of that one’s pretty quiet. Almost no one ever brings it up. But I assume if Bitcoin hits a hundred thousand to a couple hundred thousand price per coin, that’s going to start to creep up a little bit. And that typically happens at the peak of the cycles and people get kind of jealous of Bitcoin HODLer returns, not one on one, and we’ll probably need to touch.

Dan Held:

I would say the money laundering and drugs falls under control as well. Control will be a big narrative. And that’s biggest. You could label that as like regulation. Bitcoin’s already highly regulated. It’s one of the most regulated assets out there. On chain, of course it’s not, but the on and off ramps into it are, I mean it’s in the US go to buy the CFTC FinCEN, SEC. Literally like every alphabet soup agency you can imagine. So Bitcoins people, I think the regulatory side we’re fine there, but if you tried to increase regulations there, I think that’s a narrative we’ll have to fight like, Oh, is it will Bitcoin be choked to death sort of narrative. And then I think the big one that is more protocol-based is privacy. And I see this one looming on the horizon.

Dan Held:

I view it as somewhat already. It’s already had kind of a done deal. I don’t really see the rationality of the other side’s opinion in this regard, but there’s a hypothetical setup here where we have the more pro privacy folks for the Bitcoin blockchain and the pro privacy, but not as pro privacy as the most private folks, super private folks might want to add things like confidential transactions on layer, one or things that would obfuscate greatly office gate transactions on there. One problem with that is it that there’s a trade off between the auditability of Bitcoin’s monetary policy. So the 21 million hard cap and the privacy. So there’s it’s not a, you can’t have both. So you can either be fully private and not as audit-able or fully auditable and not as private, I believe largely the Bitcoin community has sided with will have auditable because the 21 million hard cap is entirely how this entirely the value prop and how this all works.

Dan Held:

And then we will push privacy to either like layer two or improvements with like coinjoins and Schnorr and incremental improvements on layer one. So I see the privacy battle coming up. I don’t think it’s going to be like the BCash hard fork one. It’s not nearly as contentious. It’s not nearly as divided. I think there’s some folks who kind of reminisce or wax poetically as to what they wish Bitcoin would be, which is they want it to be their private Ecash, which is also what the cypherpunks really felt about cryptocurrency, what it should be. Hence why some of these folks built Zcash and Monero and whatnot. There’s not really, I don’t really see a reason why Bitcoin would change anything on layer one to accommodate this application type as Bitcoin using coin join plus layer two tech is private enough.

Stephan Livera:

Right. And I think it’s, it remains to be seen. Maybe there’s some advance in technology coming over the next five to 10 years, and maybe it’s a longer term thing that we do get something that improves privacy. And it’s just, we don’t know it yet, or we don’t have that technology available to us. And the current technology, it doesn’t have the right trade-offs that we would accept. And maybe in that time, maybe there would be something that does give a better privacy without the risk of inflation and without risking the auditability, who knows. But yeah, I guess the other point there is that there may exist to be these two different worlds, right? The kind of regulated world and the kind of more gray market non-regulated world of Bitcoin. And they will just for better or worse, they’ll just co-exist. And it seems to me that like, that’s the likely outcome at least for now. And it seems that the borders between those two worlds are quite porous, right? That you can just, people can buy coins on a regulated exchange, run them through a coinjoin and send them out. And now they’re out into the gray market world.

Dan Held:

Yeah. I mean, look coin joins worked so well that most dark net markets, most merchants and transactors use Bitcoin. I mean that’s testament to its value. Now with coinjoins, it’s going to be really tricky. Once layer one fees start to get pretty high. I would estimate layer one fees probably between 50 and a hundred dollars by the peak of the cycle, which is not a bad thing. It’s what we’ve all been predicting and is inherent with how Bitcoin’s been architected. It’s definitely not a bad thing. Given it’s a store of value protocol where the value is being moved to very large cargo ships, not containers as Nic Carter puts it. So, but with coin joins, that might be a little bit cost prohibitive. It depends on that. Like maybe then it would just become like, you can only coin very large values.

Dan Held:

Now, again, I’m not an expert in this. I defer to folks that are a lot smarter than I am like Matt Odell and those guys to jam on how Bitcoin works with coinjoins in a high fee environment. But yeah, I think like Bitcoin has great privacy already. It’s got pretty good privacy. All puns intended it’s it’s not perfect. I think like, and that’s where I pushed back on. I wrote a piece on privacy and I pushed back on the idea that perfect privacy is possible. I’ve seen the internal mechanisms of how data is collected at like an Uber scale. There is no way to escape data collection, unless you do not have a cell phone and you live off the grid and an internet connection. And so if you’ve got a cell phone. You’re registering tons of metadata with the cell phone towers with GPS, like you’ve got all sorts of apps that have SDKs that are recording this data.

Dan Held:

So the idea that like you can have a perfectly private, transactional protocol, let’s say hypothetically Monero, Z, Cash, that which they’re not, you still have huge amount of exposure with all the metadata you’re throwing off. Have you ever checked the price of an arrow on your phone? Boom logs? Have you ever okay you did an in person transaction for some coin to buy it privately. Well, if that person’s been flagged as a dealer, then they’re checking all of the text messages and metadata messages. Like people forget like, Oh, well you might have encrypted messages, but the metadata actually gives more information than the messages themselves. In fact, in Iraq and Afghanistan, the US government drops bombs on SIM cards, not people, it looks at the connectivity between that SIM card and other SIM cards. It doesn’t even need to know the message. It just needs to now that this SIM card is communicating with these other SIM cards in that identifies them enough. So when it comes to perfect privacy, perfect privacy is not possible on a practical level for 99.99999% of people. So having a perfectly private protocol is a bit of a pipe dream, because even if you could accomplish that, which you can’t, you still wouldn’t be able to preserve the other privacy measures, which would leak a bunch of data,

Stephan Livera:

Right? So there’s a lot of difficulty around achieving that dream of fully open-source and secure and more private. But I guess it’s not stopping people taking certain incremental steps, right. They can take little incremental steps and hopefully longer term things can be built out that for example alternative phone operating systems or things that are like Graphene and so on and Copperhead and Calyx and things like that on the phone. And then potentially over time that is an option for people, but certainly for now it’s very difficult and just not feasible for the for the app, not at all feasible for the average person. But hopefully as number goes up, we can see funding into some of project that help people sovereignty and freedom.

Dan Held:

Yeah, to be clear I’m a huge fan of this project. I love stuff who really out there like using cam and radio to transbit. Bitcoin transaction, that just cool, I mean I’m down to like be as resilient as possible. My conscience is more geared towards average person, so I am thinking more the average person vibes. But I am very much encouraged and I encourage everyone to go down the audible of increasing the privacy as much as they can. Are you running a mobile VPN in your phone now?

Stephan Livera:

I normally run, well , I’ll infinite too running, but not in VPN on my phone.

Dan Held:

Yeah, Exactly, I got it on my phone, but I turn in off for a while because it’s slowdown my speed.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah, it might things down like battery and again theres always straight this things. And you can say , Yeah you can use easily with this things, but it might burn your battery slow faster or it might be the connectivity issues or you try connecting other things. But I mean, I guest it depends what you, what we talking about. Because if I am using Samourai Wallet that is using Tor. So it really depends on what you talking about, maybe you can selectively flip it on when you need to do, when you need to look things up or whatever. But I guest theres a ways to manage that, but look. Dan, it has been great chatting with you of course, we’ve gotta get the listeners to subscribe. So where they can find you online?

Dan Held:

Yeah, I had a blast I think we need to do more often. I feel we are going attack a more hours. Theres a lot of things todo. Bitcoin and Hodler, theres so many things happening in there. I mean it’s just wild to live in this time. I mean stick the moment. By the way if you’re listening to this to enjoy the fact that you’re part of this and part of history. You will only go to lots of this bullruns, so enjoy the moment it merely intense, but it takes the moment to reflect it in. For myself, if you really like what you heard today, you wanna follow me @danheld on Twitter, I’m also started a news letter it’s called the Held Report so if you search for it. It’s on my Bio account in Twitter account or just google search https://danheld.substack.com/ that’s where I cover my latest long form thoughts. On Twitter I’m a growth guys so I optimise my tweet for maximum propagation which means, I’m going to make a short quippy, to the point which I like doing that. But sometimes I’ve got deeper thoughts I wanna share more than a couple lines. So, that what I do for my longer news letter it comes weekly. And I write about longer topics for example about last week about The Rebellion Begins which is about, How Wall Street Bets more like a mindset and how accretive to Bitcoin more of it, of being rebellion against Legislative Financial system. How longer term there’s a schelling point about Bitcoin Rebellious narrative. And the this week I write about Bitcoin being incorporated into treasuries of big companies. What that means, for someone who’s read William Gibsons books using movies like Aliens or different movies that talks about mega corporations are weight into this world. A corporation that larger than government. Telsa buying bitcoin have a signal that which is really cool.

Dan Held:

Yeah, By the way it’s in sovereign individual it bring idea of every people and companies starts giving a shut. Go around and giving jurisdiction and this is the type of topics that I cover, check it out I mentioned a little bit earlier. If you want to rewind you can find that. Thanks! Stephan for inviting me on have a bust talking you for the next time.

Stephan Livera:

Excellent. Thanks, very much Dan!

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