SLP287 Danny Scott and Zakk Lakin – Hoffline wallets & Lightning adoption

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Danny Scott and Zakk Lakin of CoinCorner join me to talk about: 

  • Starting CoinCorner
  • A new type of wallet – Hoffline
  • Security considerations
  • Lightning adoption
  • Bitcoin Core contribution

Links:

Episodes mentioned:

Sponsors: 

Stephan Livera links:

Podcast Transcript:

Stephan Livera:

Danny and Zakk, welcome to the show.

Danny and Zakk:

Hi Stephan. Thanks for having us great to finally speak to you.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. So I see you guys are doing some exciting things and thought it was time to get you boys on for a chat. So let’s hear a little bit about you and how you got into, well, I guess Danny, let’s start with you and let’s hear a little bit from you and how you started CoinCorner.

Danny Scott:

I’ll jump in. I’ll keep this brief. I kind of got involved in Bitcoin more on a hands-on level from about 2012-2013 pre that kind of pops up a few times in the past that a couple of companies I was working for and I was looking at various competitive advantages, shall we say? And that kind of cropped up a few times as an opportunity. We never went ahead with any of them. And then that was again, more management level. Didn’t really understand it didn’t know what it was, it was magic internet money, I guess. It was the feedback, I guess we got along the way, but eventually then, I kind of spun off with one of our co-founders and we created a software company. And then we pulled ourselves kind of back in towards a Bitcoin about 2012-2013, and then we started mining a little bit and we were mining for a year or so.

Danny Scott:

I think that was, and then we got to a point where obviously the assets were difficult to acquire and that became a bit of a arms race to get us the ASICS. So obviously being, we are on the isle of man, which is a little island off England, if people are not sure where that is, it’s in between the Irish sea and between Ireland and the UK.

Stephan Livera:

Awesome.

Danny Scott:

So we struggled to get anything in terms of the ASICs and then the electricity costs were increasing due terms. So we needed more ASICs on there and it wasn’t really feasible as a business model for where we were and how we was able to source the assets. So we wanted to stay in the Bitcoin world. So we pivoted, we were software developers by trade. So we kind of pivoted to creating Coin Corner.

Danny Scott:

Cause at the time, again, it was sort of 2014 at that point, that starts 2014. And we got to the point where it was very difficult still to buy Bitcoin, especially in the UK, obviously the US have Coinbase and the likes, they still at that time. But yeah, we struggled to buy Bitcoin, which is why actually when it originally started mining rather than buying them, because we couldn’t find a decent platform back in the day to buy something like that. We’ve I was fortunate enough not to end up on the Mt. Gox and the Mt. Gox Situation. I don’t know why we, I think we just stay clear of that generally, just because it was a kind of Japanese style site and we were trying to find a UK one, I think at the time.

Stephan Livera:

That’s interesting because most people back in those days were on Mt. Gox, like Mt. Gox pretty much was Bitcoin back then. So it’s funny, but I guess people had their different experiences. So Zakk let’s hear from you as well.

Zakk Lakin:

So I didn’t really know much at all about Bitcoin really until probably about mid 2017. I’m kind of fresh grad computer science degree, working in a corporate software development house. And then I had a colleague Liam, who used to work here at Coin Corner. He kind of reached out and said, there’s a job going, which piqued my interest. So kind of jumped in then been down the rabbit hole ever since really now looking back. Cause I came in right at the tail end of the block size wars. So I’ve recently read the book by Jonathan Bier on that. That was really eye-opening. So I arrived at the company towards the tail end of that time in the, yeah. So I’m fairly new, but old four years now at the company.

Danny Scott:

Zakk’s our tech lead here as well.

Zakk Lakin:

Yeah. Fully down the rabbit hole. Yeah.

Speaker 2:

Cool. So Danny, let’s get into this hoffline wallet idea. So it seems like such a crazy thing. So I guess maybe you want to set the scene for us. Like why were you even thinking about this idea? Like doesn’t everyone just use multisig or just use say one of the well-known custodians, like say BitGo or an Anchorage or one of those?

Danny Scott:

Yeah. So I guess I’ll set the scene a little bit try and keep it entertaining. Cause I don’t think it’s as exciting as sometimes it sounds. So I think we were not to wanting to slag off the likes of Coinbase, but it was Coinbase. Coincidentally at the time I think they’d added one of the altcoins the previous night. And I means that came into the office in the morning. And as we do quite often, we’re in before everyone else. And we’ll say chatting about various things I’ve got happened in the night or tech issues on sort of Bitcoin itself core or whatever that be and we was going through kind of a bit of a run about Coinbase and how they’ve got the funds. They’ve got the resources, they’ve got everything in their disposal and they don’t really do too much for the Bitcoin industry.

Danny Scott:

And this was before I think Peter McCormack had convinced Brian Armstrong to start contributing to Bitcoin core developers and things. So it was even before that. So it was kind of like we were thinking, the same thoughts. Why are you guys? You’ve got everything at you disposal and you’re doing nothing to help the industry. So we were thinking of, they could be doing all sorts of crazy ideas. And obviously one of them that popped up was a hot wallet that is purely offline. The keys are purely offline. So we sort of fed us, obviously a ridiculous idea, which just sort of push it off and leave it. And then we thought, well, like aren’t we? We’ve seen cold storage do that with QR codes and that side. So we started talking around them and how that would work. And then we started touched on or what if we automate the QR codes to just go backwards and forwards between themselves and then communicate in an automated manner. So we had a look round and couldn’t really find anything that was doing anything similar, we thought it was a ridiculous idea and maybe it still is. We’ll wait and see. A lot of people judge on that.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. And maybe do you want to also set the scene a little bit in terms of what most because of all the hacks that have gone on in this industry, so many people have lost money and as we say, it’s a perennial saying “Not your keys, not your coins”. And so typically I guess most exchanges would like have like a smaller, hot wallet and then they’d keep most of their stuff in a cold wallet. Right. And that cold wallet is where they might have multisignature and so on. Or they might be using a custodian who is in turn doing some of those more advanced techniques. So I guess, is that kind of a good high level of what most exchanges would be doing at this point?

Zakk Lakin:

Yeah. Completely. I think so as an exchange, probably our biggest attack vector would be our hot wallet. So this was more of a taking what the guys in the cold wallet sector are doing. And then with the air gap QR codes and trying to solve problems with the mitigating our hot wallet exposure and that kind of thing.

Danny Scott:

Yeah. It’s a different use case almost to what we see using the same methods, I guess, along the way to solve different problems, which I think you find there’s a lot of different competence that we touched on BitGo and this fireblocks and the likes are doing the MPC methods. BitGo did the multisig methods. And there’s different ways, but they all obviously still have their issues. There’s no perfect solution. And this is also hoffline is not a perfect solution either. None of the solutions are perfect and they never will be. For the most part I think but it’s just a different model effectively trying to solve a different use case, a different problem.

Stephan Livera:

That’s right. So maybe you want to talk a little bit about what the solution looks like. So for listeners, obviously it’s an audio show, but if you wouldn’t mind just kind of spelling out for them, what does it actually look like if they were to look at a hoffline set up?

Danny and Zakk:

So there’s effectively two how to explain it. There’s two halves to it. Each half, one half is the hot while at one half is just the cold wallet. Each half has a Raspberry Pi and then alongside a camera, it’s kind of each one is mirrored. So the hot camera is looking at the cold Raspberry Pi and the cold camera’s looking at the hot Raspberry Pi, and then they communicate back and forth by QR codes in an air gapped manner. And we put in a nice, shiny little 3d printed case. 3d printer was running overdrive on. Yeah. It was like a big, fourty-hour print. Yeah. That’s, that’s the basic setup in a nutshell. If you watch the video we’ve put video out on social, so you can probably watch that and see just to get an idea for yourself of how that looks and how it works.

Danny and Zakk:

Kinda looks a bit weird and looks a bit crazy. I think we had a few people so touching on, they thought it was just a piece of Lego, but together, coincidentally, we actually started with Lego before we did the 3d prints and we we built a case with Lego to hold the PIs and the cameras. But it wasn’t quite as good as the 3d printed, prints. It’s also, it’s the very first form factor. So we’ve got several ideas out there, how to make it super small. And you know, you don’t need to use Raspberry Pi. We can use our own custom hardware or smaller hardware on smaller screens. So it’s the very first incarnation, more of a proof of concept of crazy idea. It was a little bit of an R and D project, I think for some of us here in the team and a big part of it as well.

Danny and Zakk:

We’d like to kind of get the message out to those people as well, but doing these things, that’s, it’s an R and D projects we put out that’s a community we’ve actually had very good feedback so far. We’ve not really had anything too negative in that respect, but we’re hoping part of this also just opens people’s eyes up to what are some still innovation to be done in Bitcoin. There’s still things that can be created. There’s still problems to solve using things around the Bitcoin industry and the infrastructure. So it’s kind of a don’t stop, innovating and working on Bitcoin. There’s lots to do still. And so hopefully it helps inspire others to follow and do something that’s potentially crazy as what this may be.

Stephan Livera:

Right. And so let’s talk a little bit about what it might be useful for. So as I understand, from what you’re saying, it’s not necessarily that you’re going to replace your cold storage with this hoffline project, but it might be that you use this as your new hot wallet instead, because maybe this is like a more secure way to have a quote unquote warm wallet, as opposed to just having like a single signature, everything on one computer kind of style.

Danny Scott:

Exactly. Yeah. It’s kind of a step forward for the hot wallet where you can now take the keys purely offline to an air gapped machine. And that will, it’s a step forward on the current models are in place. Should we say? And the security and it’s an advancement in the security aspects of it as is, was BitGo with their multisig and things like compared to just the standard standalone hot wallet on a server, for example. So these things are just step forward each time and improve in each time. So yeah, we wouldn’t ever hold our a hundred percent of our cold storage to Bitcoins in there. You know, that’d still be silly. We still operate it like a hot wallet, but it start additional comfort that the keys are never on a physical machine that is physically online at any point.

Stephan Livera:

So then that would theoretically make it harder for somebody to attack. Like, let’s say now, they would have to physically get there and access to the hoffline device to try and somehow extract the keys out of there and then runaway and somehow spend it out away.

Danny and Zakk:

Yeah. And the biggest attack vector is physical, which is with anything really, but we’ve even had crazy ideas about how you deal with that. You know, you can put it in vaults, put it you can have a multisig setup, so you have five of these around the world. There’s so many other ideas building on top of this that would allow those. So yeah, it would allow for the multisig piece. So we could have two of these apps or three of these apps and you can dot them around the world and the keys would still be offline. So they’re all three keys. For example, there are all required to sign the transaction and all three of them keys are purely offline and never go online at any point. So that again is another advancement at something that we’ll be playing around with as well.

Danny and Zakk:

So yeah, that reduces the physical attack vector, I guess, from the digital — talking about [inaudible] it. So the online piece on there’s a lot of queries about, well, what if somebody compromises the online machine and then displays a QR code that tells them to send Bitcoin to an address that’s a hacker’s address, obviously we’ve put mitigations in place for things like that. So there’s, for example, when a customer, goes onto the website, they input their address on their amount. There’s a secret key at the web end. Hash then creates a signature which gets recorded onsecondary database. I’m being fairly vague with some of this. From a security perspective anyway, and we’ll call that signature. If that’s what goes into a secondary database one the hot wallet and the hot machine pulls down the data to send the transaction.

Danny and Zakk:

So will pull some from the database, it’ll pull the signature, for example, from the secondary database. And that signature can then be passed in the QR codes to the offline machine. And the offline machine has the secret key as well. It’s only stored there and at the web interface layer at that point, it can then verify that the request effectively came from the customer from the website. And so even if you compromise a piece in the middle, like the online machine, you would still also need to compromise the website at the same time as well. So there’s certain mitigations put in place there to effectively reduce, I guess, the success of an attack. So there’s multiple machines and multiple locations that have to be compromised to even attempt an attack. Should we say, I think we’ve also talked about ideas around, so a lot of these exchanges nowadays work off a white listing address system, or you have to whitelist the withdrawal address. So you could even have that white list stored on the offline one as well. So if any malicious actor did try and do something that could only gain where they can withdraw the Bitcoins to. So there’s loads of mitigations that we’ve thought of which we’re working on too.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. Fascinating. And so then it’s also a process of different technologies in the ecosystem all come in and at one example could be that we have over the last say year or two, we started to see more attention drawn to this idea of QR code PSBT right. And before we even had that, we had to have PSBT and then now we’re starting to see more development in QR codes and this idea of having QR code hardware wallets as well, like even specter DIY. I did an episode with Stepan Snigirev about that one. The foundation guys are doing their device. That’s kind of like a QR native device as well. So I guess that’s an example of like the technology is kind of building up on what came before.

Danny and Zakk:

Yeah. Completely. Yeah. And I think I had listened to the Stepan Snigirev’s. Yeah, we did listen to that one, I think with the QR and yeah, it’s very interesting. I don’t think he highlights in that as well. It’s just different way. I know coldcard, for example they do it with the SD card and it’s just a different method. And then it doesn’t actually move in the QR code anymore that they had plans for that. But I think they’ve scrapped plans for that now, but it’s just, again, a different model and it’s a different method. So each one has its own attack vectors, but each one has its pros and its cons and it’s all about trade-offs, isn’t it? Yeah. It’s going to be who finds it useful and who doesn’t some will some won’t.

Danny and Zakk:

I think that’s hopefully what the hoffline piece will be as well. It’s going to be who finds it useful, who doesn’t, maybe it doesn’t fit quite right for BitGo for example, because they operate in a different manner, I guess, to the way this is maybe intended to use because they operate with exchanges as their customers. Whereas this is kind of more like the exchange can use this themself, take that custody back and not have to outsource it to BitGo, for example, or another one, which is one we are quite keen to play around with what haven’t actually had the time yet we will pursue at some point is the Umbrel Nodes cause Umbrel has become a very popular Bitcoin node setup. With obviously Lightning built in as well, which is very good. And you could actually have the same setup, your Umbrel Nodes.

Danny and Zakk:

So that would be if that’s for your Umbrel Node. So your keys for that affects where are stored offline as well to alleviate I guess any worries as well for the most part, you can, people can access their Umbrel node remotely. And if you want to send a Bitcoin transaction, you can do that. And actually, if you then have 2FA Google authenticator on your phone and that same Google authenticator code is also on the offline device. So when you come to make a transaction remotely, you can do that and import the Google 2FA and the offline can verify that for you there. So it starts to mean that there’s, a bit more security around running your Enbrel node in terms of sending the Bitcoin out. So it’s definitely something that I think hopefully as you’ve touched on there, that we’ve kind of taken some of the QR code pieces from the cold storage side and try to use them in a solution that we can potentially use. And hopefully then the guys at Umbrel and the other people can use what we’ve built and build on top of that to keep creating better and better products and infrastructure.

Stephan Livera:

Cool. And so then it doesn’t necessarily have to be a project for exchanges. It could be that maybe some other small business who wants to roll their own warm wallet. Now they want to take that code and run their own little hoffline thing. So that’s one example where maybe some, or yeah, or maybe another example might be like a Bitcoin beach, right. It’s a community of people and they’ve got like a community lightning wallet. Maybe that’s like another example there. So I guess there’s just ways it can be used in other places, not necessarily at an exchange.

Danny Scott:

Yeah. I think we talked about it as well, taking it one step further with lightning. Trying around, playing around with storing the macaroons on the offline one and that kind of thing. So that is kind of down the pipeline, but stuff we’re thinking about too, and interested in pursue conversation with lightning labs guys are going to think around it, let’s see what we can come up with.

Stephan Livera:

And so that’s the other thing as well with a lot of exchanges now. I mean, they are now starting to get Lightning. And so I know you guys have Lightning just recently. Right? So that’s cool to see. I’m very excited to see that I love to see lightning being adopted by the ecosystem. So is that something you’re looking at as well? I mean, you mentioned that you might potentially look at a way to have the hoffline and do a lightning thing. Like how would that work?

Danny and Zakk:

Yeah. We’re still very early at the moment. We’re not quite sure ourselves. Yeah. I think similar to what was said there with the macaroons and you pass them across in the QR code. So the effects with the node is still running offline. For some extent, I know they’ve — lightning labs actually got a release coming with LND, is it? Don’t know if it’s going soon. Which starts to allow the — you can have a lightning node and receive lightning payments offline where the keys are kept offline. Correct me if I’m wrong, Zakk, but there’s talk around that. Yeah. Which would be an interesting development, which would be good, but there’s obviously still the side of it. If he wants to send lightning payments out of your node, that still needs to be online. So then it’s, how can we maybe find some way there to use this method? I appreciate speed is I guess, a trade-off for this particular method with the QR codes, because it can be slow to transact between the two cameras. So maybe Lightning doesn’t quite work with this form. You know, there’s an idea out there and hopefully somebody can spin something off that solves the speed problem. And it can be instant and we know the lightning labs are definitely pursuing ideas around how to do things more securely and yeah. Bringing keys offline and that kind of thing. So yeah.

Stephan Livera:

So then maybe what it would look like in the future is you might have a Lightning wallet and then the hoffline for the kind of bigger than a typical Lightning send and then like the cold. So you’d have like a multi sort of stage.

Danny and Zakk:

Yeah. Layers of stage. Completely. Watch this space.

Stephan Livera:

Oh yeah. That’s the other thing — it also kind of reminds me of CK Bunker, right. So that’s another Coldcard project and it’s like this idea that you could set up at the end. I think MyNode has it as one of the options. I can’t recall if it’s still there now, but I know they had it and it was kind of this idea that you can roll your own co-signer right. And so it’s sort of a similar idea there that it got integrated into one of the node projects. And I guess it’s kind of in a similar vein to that.

Danny and Zakk:

Yeah. The CK Bunker actually is one, we’d missed that one because we were looking around for this. I guess it’s hard. Cause we were looking for hot wallet, automated hot wallets with offline keys, which is kind of the problem we was looking to solve. But then there’s other people that built very similar of the CK bunker. Very similar technology, but it’s for slightly different scenario to what we were looking for. So we never came across that. And that was one I didn’t come across. And there’s been a lot of comments on it from people saying, go and look at CK bunker, it’s sort of similar setup. So when I do need to go off and look up, still haven’t had time to look at that. But yeah, that sounds interesting. But yeah, I think seeing it, these kinds of things integrated with the node projects is a good thing.

Danny and Zakk:

It’s like a Latin people taking charge, take charge of their own security in a way they’re putting a lot of money. It allows you to expose yourself more on these personal nodes rather than just playing around with Lightning. Feeding chickens, it can actually turn into something. You know, I think with Umbrel as well, it’s allowing more people run nodes, is more decentralization and all the good things that come from that. And I think as time goes on as well, we’ve now got the Umbrel piece where it is very easy to set up and run your own node and it sits there, running and there’s no maintenance, it just sits there running. But you can use it and interacts with it. But I think as time goes on that obviously with any technology things adapt, things change.

Danny and Zakk:

We imagine that touched on at the very start we’re talking about actually reducing the Raspberry PIs down just to the little chips and tiny screens, which maybe we can then encompass into a tiny box almost. And that box could be your effectively, your Umbrel node, but it just sits in the corner of your house and you can run it and operate everything you need to off that in a secure, trusted manner. So then that will eventually come, and you’ve got smart TV, smart fridges and things like that. And eventually there was the doom I don’t think I’ve ever seen the monster the meme, can it run run doom, try and put the game on any kind of electronic device for the screen. So it’d be quite interesting one to see if it can run Bitcoin on any device around the world. And hopefully that’s the future were. Yeah. Your light bulb is running a Bitcoin node for example. So yeah, that could be interesting to see.

Stephan Livera:

And I guess that the other thing from CK bunker is that idea of policy rules. And so just like you were mentioning Zakk that you might white list certain addresses, or you might say I’m going to rate limit the withdrawals from this device to say no more than 50 million sats in a 24 hour period that you can build these sort of policy rules into the offline device to then rate limit the withdrawals to sort of…

Danny and Zakk:

Exactly. And then those can be changed depending on like say an exchange depending on that comfortability with how much exposure they want like say certain volumes can go to like a manual sign off and address whitelist and mitigation helps at the end of the day. Doesn’t it? I mean, we even thought of I think I actually put that on the tweet thread was the blockstream satellite and receiving transactions from there. And that means we could run a Bitcoin core full node on there. Which I don’t know if somebody would class that as offline at that point because you’ve got a satellite kind of connect to them, pull it in. So maybe that’s available, but yeah, little things like that where it seems crazy, but you know, maybe that’s the way that innovation is created and how it happens. So we just keep playing and we’ll see what else we come up with.

Stephan Livera:

And so it’s all about the industry is growing up, professionalizing maturing. And so obviously people like you and me and my listeners, we’re all more hardcore Bitcoin people, but for the people who aren’t like us, they want things like insurance companies to be comfortable with it. They want regulators to be comfortable with it. And maybe these are some of the innovations that help get those people over the line so that they change their minds and say, okay, I’m working in some insurance company. And now that I’ve seen this new security technique, maybe I’ll start to offer insurance or lower the premiums available on it. That kind of aspect.

Danny and Zakk:

Completely. I think insurance is a big one we’ve over the years obviously we put [inaudible] before we were founded in 2014. So we’ve been running since then. And we’ve pretty much since then spoken to various insurance companies. Banks obviously is a whole different ball game and we speak to them all the time. But the insurance companies, yeah, originally, there was like, there was no chance of insurance. It was just a blank no. Then as time progressed, we’ve gotten to they’ll insure cold storage, but they wouldn’t touch hot wallets because they were the big issue. But you also to have certain, they had like a structure that you had to do and follow for the cold storage to actually be insured and you have to do certain things to make sure it was all insured. And then at that point, it slowly adapted now to, they’ve become more comfortable with as technology has moved on and that the processes for cold storage. Bitcoins have moved on and developed someone now we are starting to see insurance companies now starting to insure hot wallets at certain levels. And they’re slowly easing ease enough. And as you say is completely correct as time moves on and technology becomes better at these institutes become more comfortable. And over time that changes. And I think we even had — was it one of the guys in here the morning after the announcement of hoffline, they went into school to drop the kids off and got stopped in the playground by somebody who actually worked in a bank and was then asking about hoffline and how it works and everything. So it’s a good step forward in the right direction.

Stephan Livera:

So actually I’m curious then on your view, Danny, what institutions are there that are still blocking and that we need the industry broadly, the Bitcoin industry needs to evolve a little bit further for that kind of company or institution is okay with us.

Danny and Zakk:

I think banks are always the big one. For the most part, the piece that I guess prevents a lot of people around the world being able to gain exposure to Bitcoin, obviously the regulators as well, of course are a sticking point for some countries we’re seeing in the UK already at the minute. I think this week we’ve is it this week NatWest announcement, or there’s not an announcement, but there’s a leak from that west that they’re going to stop. Anybody been able to buy a Bitcoin from the NatWest account, which is 6 million customers. They have you know, it’s quite a big bank in the UK. So that would be a little bit of a backwards step for us. And it’s certainly a backward step for them. But it’s kind of moved on from, they’re not comfortable with it or they don’t like it and it’s used for crime and things like that, but it’s actually moved on to something called app fraud which is effectively people being scammed by maybe something like a romance scam or something along them lines were.

Danny Scott:

They’ve been told that they need to pay these people Bitcoin for X, Y, and Z reasons. And they come to an exchange. They might bank at NatWest, for example, they send £10,000 over to Coin Corner. They buy the Bitcoin with those the Sunday after this person who they believe is legitimate and or correct. And then they get scammed out of £10,000. And it’s the old traditional scams I’ve been around for centuries. It’s nothing new. It’s just, as technology moves along the scammers find new ways to create these scams, if that’s willing to mask them should we call it? So the banks at the minute and the NatWest one in particular, their ban on Bitcoin, or what we think is a ban potentially — is purely because of that. it’s not because they don’t like Bitcoin and they don’t like how it works or anything along them lines.

Danny Scott:

It’s purely now because they’re trying to protect the customer in some way still. Okay. That’s not particularly right. Or maybe, I don’t know how to word that right. In my eyes there, because it was just 600 customers that they were, had been scammed out of money for it, which is obviously a bad thing. And we don’t want that happening. And that 600 customers that have been scammed and they’re, detrimenting 6 million, they’re stopping 6 million being able to use this thing because of 600 customers. And really they could put procedures and policies in place within their company to try and handle these people going through the system. But of course that would cost them more money and more resources, all that. So they don’t want to do that. The easiest answer is just to ban it and stop it. But I do think having said that we’ve had a lot of pushback from HSBC as an example, when, again, sorry, I’m going off on banks.

Stephan Livera:

There’s different reasons, right? So I know even here in Australia, CBA, Commonwealth bank of Australia, one of the big banks for people who don’t know, I think they stopped people buying it, using credit cards and things like that, but they didn’t stop them with sending their own money. But I think they were also wary about the whole romance scams and all the scams. But unfortunately for us in this industry, bad things will happen. And then Bitcoin gets blamed, they’ll say, oh, see, it was a Bitcoin scam when it’s, no, it was a romance scam. Or it was the typical Nigerian prince scam or one of those other scams that’s out there. So it’s…

Danny Scott:

Exactly. That it really is exactly that and that the UK had done the same. They don’t allow the credit cards. Or most of them don’t allow credit card purchases now, but they’ll allow you to send your own money. NatWest saying, they’re not going allow you to send your own money as well, which is kind of yeah, Bitcoin solves this angle really.

Danny and Zakk:

But yeah, HSBC has been an interesting one where they’ve been blocking, they’re not coming out with an announcement or anything, but they have been blocking certain customers and it’s only certain customers and certain amounts and values. And it’s not every customer, one of them more recent was a high net worth and the blots and conversation with him. And now he’s looking to leave HSBC and move to another bank because of that. And he’s high net worth high value customer to them. And he’s looking to leave the bank and move elsewhere. So I think with the likes of NatWest doing that, they’re playing a dangerous game there. They may think it’s a quick solution to block 6 million people being able to buy Bitcoin through their bank. But actually how many customers are they going to lose due to that? Rather than them spending a little bit of extra resource and manpower to deal with the actual problem, rather than just run away from the problem.

Zakk Lakin:

We’ve even had experience talking to people of so the blank bank blocks them to buy Bitcoin and they go into the branch, talk to the person for weeks and days saying, it’s fine, it’s clear that it’s not a scam.

Danny and Zakk:

And they still refuse to send the money, which is at the end of the day, it’s that person’s money there. I think one of the things, as well as an exchange, we’re a smaller exchange compared to the likes of Coinbase that has been on some things. So we see that the customers that come through, we actually catch a lot of the Romance style scams or high yield investment program, style scams. We actually catch them on the way through and we’ll do manual checks as well. We actually do spend the time and the effort to catch these, to protect the customer. And a lot of the time we have saved people. and once we explain to them. I guess in the industry, we see these scams day in, day out, and we know if the customer can just tell us, okay, I’m sending the Bitcoin onto this website, we have a quick look at the website.

Danny and Zakk:

We can tell them within 30 seconds, whether that’s a scam or not. And then they generally will trust us on that. And then it prevents them sending any money onto it and either they’ll then stay and just keep holding the Bitcoin with us or they’ll requests like a refund almost back and withdraw the money back the bank. So we’re doing that as a small company. We’re doing that already. The banks could be doing the same thing, that upsets their customers as well, but they’re just not it’s kind of a, a quick solution is just ban it and ignore it for the time being again. That’s but yeah, I think it’s all changing and it’s moving the better today.

Stephan Livera:

One thing that brings up for me is we have these conversations and often we’re talking about really technical things and it’s typically conversations with developers or very tech savvy, hardcore people who are going to actually go and do the work. And then if you go to like a Bitcoin meetup and you’re talking to a newcoiner, or even just someone on the street, their level of technical knowledge or competence, like they might not even be using a password manager. They might, you know, you try to impress on them, the importance, Hey, write down these 12 words, write down these 24 words and keep them very safe. Do not show anyone and they’ll lose it. Right. And so I’m wondering, where do you guys believe we have to strike that balance of obviously we want people to be fully self-sovereign, but then how much of that is like, trying to do things for people?

Zakk Lakin:

I think, we’re literally have kind of a similar conversation yesterday, just about money in general and how a lot of the world, certainly I didn’t, I don’t know in a day. When you’re growing up, you don’t get taught how money works and what fractional reserve banking is and all that kind of thing. So I think it’s hard for them when you’re trying to orange pill, someone. So then for those people to really understand why we’re so passionate about it, why we’re so insistent on security, self sovereignty, that kind of thing. So we usually go at an angle, you teach them how money works, and then they come up. Then they work out themselves.

Danny Scott:

It’s better that way, so that way, if they come up with the idea themselves, rather than preaching at somebody, I think kind of when anybody asks me questions, I generally go back with questions back to them, rather than answer the questions to help them think for themselves and come up with the answer themselves, rather than me pushing the answer on them.

Danny Scott:

Cause people don’t like to be pushed information on. They like to come up with that solution and answer themselves. And then they think they’re a genius and it all works off the go. And so it works much better. I think we found over the years to kind of Zakk say in the educate them or help push them in the direction of actually on learn about what money is and how it works and how the economy works at a basic level, at least in that gives them that kind of opens their eyes into Bitcoin is, and how that works. And then they come back with the more interesting questions at that point. And you can have the conversation a bit better with them. And yeah, I think it’d be great for everybody to run their own and handle their own node on Bitcoin.

Danny and Zakk:

But I think the world we live in, it just, doesn’t, it’s just not a thing that I don’t think we’ll ever get. You’ll never get a hundred percent of the population of the globe running and using it all from their own nodes and their own hardware, software, whatever you wanna call that perspective. But so what you end up with is companies maybe like ourselves or Coinbase and the likes where people will need to go to Coinbase and will need to sign up and buy Bitcoin there and hold the Bitcoin there. And they don’t want to have to look after it themselves. I always say in the office we get a lot slate for, but people are lazy. And it’s just a generalization that there’s a great example of the webcam and how the webcam was created.

Danny and Zakk:

And laziness drives innovation and creates innovation. And the webcam was created because the guys that was at Cambridge university or one of the universities, they had a coffee machine or a coffee pot in a different office to where they were working and they didn’t want to get up to go and check when it was ready or when it was empty each time. So they decided to, they created a webcam. So watch it basically. So watch a coffee bar and you know, they were just too lazy to get up from their desk and walk into the room next to them to see if it needed filling up or either. So it does create innovation — the laziness, but people are lazy and people don’t want to have to deal and learn and do these things themselves. So I think unfortunately we will always have some form of custodial services out there that are looking after customer funds.

Danny and Zakk:

And that also does come with the benefits of nicer products sometimes and nastier integrations of things. So it’s not all downsides.

Zakk Lakin:

I think the custodial services are kind of the gateway drug to the rabbit hole, really for the people that I want to go down, because it’s very overwhelming trying to learn all this stuff as a no coiner. You know, if you’re learning straight away about private keys and seed words and storing it yourself. The custodial services are like a gateway drug, really easy to use website. They used to use in websites. And then, then once they’ve got a bit of bitcoin and they go down the rabbit hole and if they want to go and set up their own node and withdraw the coins, and.

Danny Scott:

I think it would be very different depending on where you are in the world as well.

Danny and Zakk:

I think obviously you’ve seen the El Salvador piece where 70% of the country that are on banks and they don’t have the bank account and custodian already, so they’re used to effectively having everything themselves. So I assume, and imagine they’ll quite heavily moved down the non-custodial route. I appreciate they’re using some of the medium strike at the minute and things, which is custodial, but there’s plenty of lightning wallet it’s out there. Now that a non-custodial that they can use very easy as well, like the likes of Phoenix and Breez and Muun.

Stephan Livera:

That’s cool. And I know you guys have been doing some videos on this as well, because you had some of those videos and this is even like a year ago or half a year ago, you did those videos where you showed lightning live between like three people and you would send, I can’t remember how much, maybe $200 between A to B to C, just like that. And I think it’s so cool because it just shows because sometimes you’ll be having some discussion on Twitter and someone will be like, oh, lightning doesn’t work. And it’s like, and then I would go and like, quote tweet your video, I’d be like, you can see it right here in like 20 seconds. It moves across A, to B to C, just like that. Tell us a little bit about that.

Danny and Zakk:

I think exactly what you said, the whole thing, when people say, well, lightning doesn’t work and then you just show them it working, or I’ve even got people to just sit there with me and say, download Phoenix wallet, and I’ll send you some now. And it’s like, then they argue, well, it’s custodian. Like, no, it’s not. It’s, non-custodial now as well that, and you can move as technology has been developed constantly in the background. And if you’re a year out of date with it, you’ve already, you’ve lost the race there. So yeah, the videos were kind of trying to educate, do exactly what we’re talking about there. Trying to get onto people to understand how lightning works can show it works. And it does work. And we made a point. We did the one there that you’re talking about with three of us.

Danny and Zakk:

And that was myself yourself. And sorry. And that was it. Yeah. And then we did one where we got, I think there’s 12 of us in a circle and there’s all 12 of us sort of around in circle. And we made the point of everybody we sent — was it like $10 was it? From the very starting from person one all the way around person 12. And the video was like a minute and 11 seconds or something. It wasn’t particularly long. And that was the same chunk of lightning Bitcoin that was being passed around through all of these 12 people in the 12 wallets. But we also made a point of using different wallets between each person. So you could see that it was even if people would say, oh, well, using custodial and it’s Phoenix, to Phoenix, to Phoenix then actually, no, we made a point of going from Phoenix to wallet of Satoshi, to Breez, to Eclair to it and like backgrounds and circles.

Danny and Zakk:

So it was always leaving effectively a custodian at that point. So it was, again, it was one of them things just to show lightning works and it is out there it’s working. People can use it. The adoption at the minute is still slow and takes time. And that’s natural with any technology. That’s just the way it happens. But I think especially with the El Salvador thing, that’s a real eye-opener for people. And I think we’ve seen quite a few of them now doing exactly the same sort of videos and paying for coffee with lightning and things. And just showing people a video is so much more powerful sometimes than a lot of words on the screen and just showing them how it works. A good example on that is what makes me laugh is we have regular calls with the Lightning labs guys. I remember on the last one they’re asking us what’s going on? Any issues there’s like, no, it just works just as simple as that, We have periodic calls with them just to touch base and like with, usually with Ryan and Alex Bosworth; Ryan Gentry, and I suppose with them sort of going through, and it is literally them conversations. They’re kind of like they’re looking for problems so they can help improve the product and improve L and D. But we get to a point where it is just it’s working fine. We don’t have a problem. One of the things we were looking forward to was Pool for the liquidity side, but then what we actually introduced at the start this year, we introduced lightning to our exchange piece of the business.

Danny and Zakk:

We used to have it on the gateway only. So customers could pay the merchants in lightning. So it was only one way traffic effectively with that, what we’ve now got with the exchange going in and out. So we could do deposits and withdrawals for customers. It kind of balances itself out a little bit. So we’ve not even needed to loop out or maintenance-wise yeah. It’s very little from us, which is surprising. It’s good. So that’s where the liquidity, we have sat there on that lightning node is just pretty much balances itself. It’s very little maintenance and upkeep to be quite honest, to keep it ticking over. So this is what frustration is when we see all the bigger exchanges. Say they don’t have the time and the resource, to add lightning and things, and it’s complicated and all this, but there are all these altcoins and crack on with them because it makes them money.

Danny and Zakk:

It’s a revenue generating thing for the altcoins, whereas lightning’s a short-term loss. Should we call it for a long-term gain? And they’re going with the short-term gain for the long-term loss attitude, I think is the way we see it. But yeah, it’s not that complicated to, if you’ve run a Bitcoin wallet yourself, then it’s not that much more difficult to add lightning in. And then I think the difficult piece of it, which I do appreciate from a larger company, the likes of Coinbase, I think Kraken have been struggling with that recently is not lightning itself as such. It’s bringing Lightning into their systems, which is quite a substantial size system. I think that’s the piece that’s slowing them all down from what I can tell them. So, which is a good thing. It’s a positive thing for lightning because it means it’s not Lightning. That’s the issue with the complexity, it’s their systems and internal systems themselves.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah, good point.

Danny Scott:

Yeah. Hopefully more adopt it as time goes on as well.

Stephan Livera:

I like that you’ve kind of got that natural balance going there, operating basically a lightning payment processor for merchants. And then on the other side, some customers who might want to receive in lightning. So that’s kind of like you’re going to receive in from then and spend out to the exchange customers.

Danny and Zakk:

it’s worked so nicely. It just balances itself out. And it’s so little maintenance. I think some of the big exchanges as well appreciate it. There might be, Kraken for example, maybe bigger volumes and bigger sizes, and they’ll have to run multiple nodes for Lightning nodes, but you know, once you’ve got enough liquidity in there and you’re comfortable with it, it will probably balance itself out 50 50 for the most part. And if it doesn’t the services like pool and Loop, which are now becoming automated services as well. Lightning labs are doing a good job on getting everything automated, you can set it up and then just let it go.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah that’s cool to see. And so I’m curious then as well. So are there some customers who really do live day to day on lightning or is it kind of more like most of the time people are stacking to their hardware wallet or their multisig kind of thing? Because one thing I’ve been thinking about is like, when you have a lightning interaction with an exchange, unless you’re directly spending it out, it’s kind of, maybe it doesn’t make sense to kind of receive, receive, receive over lightning and then flush it out on chain in the lightning wallet. I mean, maybe you would, but like the channel capacities might not work for that. I’m curious if you have any thoughts on that or if it’s kind of just worked for people anyway?

Danny and Zakk:

Yeah. Well, I was just going to comment. So I was thinking in my head, I was trying to think of our numbers of percentage wise of customers doing Lightning. I don’t think we don’t probably have too many living, I guess our customer base is UK, Europe as well. So for the majority of our customers, they are, as you say that they’re buying Bitcoin and withdrawing it to hold themselves, or they’re buying it and holding it with us. So there’s not many, I would say that are living off Lightning. For some part there. There has been a couple more recent that are starting to seeing lightning deposits coming in from places. And then they’re holding that with us or that, doing something with that. So there is certainly an uptick at the minute in terms of Lightning usage of customers, actually just receiving lightning payments coming in and only using lightning as well, which is what we like to see at Lightning only coincorner user. Yeah. There’s nothing on chain, just all lightning.

Stephan Livera:

The Lightning maxi!

Danny and Zakk:

Yeah. So we are seeing a little bit of an uptick in them, but they’re still small. But yeah, in terms of, sorry, what was it? The second question was the capacity.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. So basically like, would it kind of work with the channel capacities or I guess, I mean, if you’re using these the Phoenix Breez and Muuns of the world, it probably just automatically balances things out and manages over time. Right. Once you’ve done this first few channel opens and closes and things, it just kind of, it kind of just works, but maybe if your first transaction is maybe only 500 sats, then that might get eaten up by channel open. And so there’s little complexities there. Maybe they have to start with custodial if they’re in a very small amount, but once they’ve graduated up, then they’re ready to go fully a bit more sovereign, right?

Danny and Zakk:

Yeah, definitely. It is an issue should we call it for the channel balancing, but I think that’s, again, one of them things as time moves on these things change and what Breez and Phoenix and the guys have done with, it’s not one necessarily method is it? But with turbo channels trampoline payments and things, the way they’ve kind of bundled all that together to make the products of what they’ve created. There is a non-custodial, but you can open channels instantly and start using lightning instantly. I think I tested one of the day. It was with Phoenix was active. It might come off the back of the conversation with yourself on Twitter. And it was about how you can get somebody to download Phoenix and basically send them a lightning payment straight away. And then with that payment I sent, I think it was 10,000 sats, was maybe the minimum.

Danny and Zakk:

I was suddenly took a 3000 sats fee, which was a fee for the channel open up, but it was, they could use it because they use the turbo channel side of things. They could just start using lightning straight away and instantly didn’t have to wait for the confirmation for the channel to be created on the on chain, on the blockchain. And I think with custodial services like ourselves, I remember when we kind of launched our lightning, we had a few questions around, is it in a different account? How does it work in the dashboard, but it’s just your Bitcoin in your account and you can use it either on Lightning or on chain. It’s like just one account. This is there’s no need to put it onto Lightning and then do it, which is the benefits of custodial obviously. Yeah, that’s the, trade-offs against the UX on with a custodian like ourselves will be much better for the customer and that will easier to use for the lazy should we call it

Danny and Zakk:

They don’t even have to think about channels and that kind of thing. And the ones that then don’t want to keep it with a custodian and they want to do it themselves. Then they can deal with the channel opens and things, which as we appreciate them and it’s still new technology. And then there is hiccups or speed bumps. They have to get over to kind of make full use of it should we say. But it’s getting easier and easier. I think with as I keep mentioning now, the Phoenix guys, the Breez and Muun, and then obviously the custodial side with ourselves a bitfinex now and strike, obviously they’ve quite nailed their UX. I think everyone seems to love it. I’ve never been able to try the strike app myself because we’re not in the US but everyone seems to love it, which is great.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. That’s cool to see. I’m also curious as well. I mean, we’re talking about lightning. What are your thoughts on the mempool of late? Do you believe that let’s say SegWit and batching and maybe Lightning use are actually making a real difference now and actually that might be, is that part of the reason why maybe we’re seeing less transaction volume on chain or do you think it just kind of balances out over time?

Danny and Zakk:

It’s a hard one to predict as obviously at the start of the year with the price movements the mempool didn’t empty for three or four months, and then now you look now it’s empty and all the time. And I think we’d like, so blockchain.com recently support SegWit, and we saw a massive bump in SegWit percentage. Finally now just taproot’s a go. So there’s hard one to say what factors are important in that really? Isn’t it? Yeah, I think there’s a combination. I think of a lot of things I think Lightning, yes, definitely for me is a contributor to that. And maybe don’t know how significant that is at the minute, but the BitRefill stuff from the other day. was incredible late managed to save what I think we worked out was two blocks from the day of the transactions.

Danny and Zakk:

I think it was more than that because I think they got some of that. It was wrong. So that’s direct numbers there on. Yeah. BitRefill do 144 blocks that go generally get mined in the day. One company receiving payments from one country saved two blocks of space on one particular day. So it’s like you can see the scale of that. And naturally, if they were all on chain, then that’s two extra blocks with the data that was getting piled into the mempool, [inaudible]. And then there’s the fees of all those transactions would have been significantly higher than the lightning fees. So without a doubt, we are seeing that and there is proof now and there’s evidence to see that, which is good. But I do think the other side of it as well, which we can’t always just talk about the positive side, I guess that the negative side of it is maybe that the industry is having a bit of a slowdown.

Danny and Zakk:

You’ll see things. If you’re looking at Google trends and people searching for Bitcoin, we see that from customers hitting in the website, we had a, probably about a quite slow down probably with last month maybe in terms of registrations. And it starts to pick back up again at the minute with the recent drop, but not quite the level. It was January, February, March. It started this year. So I think we as an industry, we see this all the time, you have the spikes and the peaks of interest, and then it dies off for a little bit and then it comes back round again. and that seems to be the way it goes. So I think with the mempool as well, kind of follows trends with that really, and we need obviously layer two for that scalability.

Danny and Zakk:

We all remember, even though I was fairly new to the industry in 2017, the mempool’s crazy. Great time. Yeah. It was like, that was good fun. The backlog was the biggest it’s ever been and it was chaos. And that was just after the hard fork cause of SegWit 2x. And then look, how far we’ve come since then, we’ve managed to the mempool and the Bitcoin network has processed the same amount and not had that same backlog and that’s due to the likes of SegWit and lightning adoption and that kind of thing. So we have seen direct impact, but it just takes time. Doesn’t it?

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. Great examples there with BitRefill on their own, taking out two blocks. And I know Nicolas from Bitcoin beach or from Galoy money, the people the team behind Bitcoin beach’s wallet, he mentioned recently that they had a day where they had, I think it was 7,000 transactions of which only 14, or I think roughly 14 went on chain. So that’s massive savings there as well. So it’s kind of, we’re seeing some real growth there. Although like we’re saying, it’s still early days and it’s not the only factor as you said, the industry has its ups and downs and flows based on the price. And that’s always a factor there. One other area I was keen to actually touch on. I just thought of this as well is around Bitcoin core contributions. I know this is one of those things where some exchanges and Bitcoin companies choose to fund a development organization, but as I understand, you’ve kind of taken that in house. Can you tell us a little bit about your experiences there?

Danny and Zakk:

Sure. So what we did with that was; I’ve always been very, I’m a software developer by trade, so I’m a techie. And I always get actively involved in that side of things. I’ve always been from the early days. I was very much shall we call it a lurker? And I was always paying attention to it. And I was looking at it and doing things from a distance, should we call it, but I never really got hands-on with it and actually got stuck in. So we got to a point with the tech team here, then we were discussing it and we said, well we want to help contribute to Bitcoin a little bit more. Obviously we did, we run the exchange and we obviously are onboarding new customers every day. So we are contributing our contribution to the industry as a whole is onboarding new Bitcoiners every day.

Danny Scott:

But we wanted to do a little bit more and get involved from the tech side. So we sat down and we had a couple of we spent a couple of weeks and we went through with the summit with all our tech team and talked through Jimmy Song’s book: Programming Bitcoin. And we went through that just to show how that Bitcoin works. If that’s what to get the tech guys, all understanding the mechanics of all the different pieces of it. And then the next step was to try and encourage the guys to look to Bitcoin core and actually contribute something and get involved. And what we want to do with that was not necessarily get involved at the level of creating a new taproot and things like that.

Danny and Zakk:

And the idea was to kind of, we wanted, we ended up writing a couple of tutorials of how to contribute and how to do it. And we wanted to do some contributions to be able to write the articles, to push that out to other people around, to show them it’s not as scary as it seems. And the little things like even the reviewers. So you’re not just, it’s not just always about writing the code and submitting that committing that. It’s always the reviewers are the ones that we like — I guess from the Bitcoin core contribution side. So it, even if it was just to encourage people to look over all the peoples, go in and review that code, we want it to try and push the angle and get more and more people involved. I think we saw a bit of a gap missing in documentation there as well of a few of our tech team.

Danny and Zakk:

And even probably me and Danny, not that experienced with open source development. It’s a whole different environment to standard development. So even the process of using git and github and pool requests and that kind of thing. So we saw that tutorial, we wrote would help people with that. And then we are still in the background, especially myself still actively trying to contribute just at a trivial level, got a couple of PRs open and have a look at when I get some stats. Yeah. The one that’s open them and it helps me be committed similar, which is to help prevent people reusing addresses from, yeah, so one of my PRs is in the GUI. Once an address has been used it just grays out and says this address has been used quite trivial and simple but actually quite handy and whatever.

Danny and Zakk:

Yeah. And so the idea, I guess, was to be more hands-on and get actively be involved and kind of not put the money where our mouth is, but sort of, you know really contribute and be involved in that rather than just, we do as well, contribute to funding some of the developers smaller scale, not quite the scale, like Kraken and Coinbase might be thrown around that. But we do at a smaller level contribute to quite a few of the different core developers as well. And so it’s not necessarily we’re doing that just to avoid contributing to the other guys. We do that as well, but it was kind of, again, another one of the things of trying to help encourage more people and inspire more people to get involved in these things. And the more we can onboard in that manner, the better it becomes for the ecosystem.

Danny and Zakk:

I think that Bitcoin core funding is very, very important. And then you see these big companies go and it’s kind of, but it just seemed like it’s the easy way out for them to get the community, to like them. I’ll just go and pay this grant for a developer for a year, meaning they don’t have to do anything directly here, whereas we want it to get hands on understand Bitcoin at that level. Yeah. That’s encouraged us to keep banging on about it’s encouraging more and more people actually to do that. And we have got the tutorials for windows development side and Mac that we released which kind of talk you through how to do a pool request and how to commit it and how to get your first commit on Bitcoin core. If that’s what we’re using our examples of what we did to sort of show and highlight the whole process from start to finish and how it all works and how to set up, the development environment and everything. So again, that was, hopefully it was fairly good feedback on that ultimately, which was good and hopefully encourage more to jump in and get involved.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah, for sure. So yeah, if you give me those links, I can put those in the show notes for this episode. So that’ll be https://www.stephanlivera.com/286. And for any other listeners, if you’re interested, I’ve got episodes with developers as well. You might be interested in the Jon Atack episode Jonas Schnelli John Newbery, Steve Lee, various others who’ve been on the show. But yeah, so Danny and Zakk any closing comments for the listeners out there and where can they find you guys online?

Danny and Zakk:

Yeah, mainly for me; Twitter: It’s @CoinCornerDanny. So yeah, always happy to answer questions. Talk generally on there 24/7 anyway. Same yeah @CoinCornerZakk. Yeah. Always on, they’re always out to closing comments. I’m trying to think of something. Yeah. I was almost about to steal Jack Maller’s I will die on this hill. But I think yeah, generally I’m hoping that the likes of hoffline for me and what that is very much a research and development project and what I keep talking about wanting to inspire others to jump in and get involved and show people that we know we’re a small company compared to the other guys out there. And we’re still able to do these things and come up with these things. So there’s no excuses from anybody in to not jump in and do these things themselves and try these things. You don’t even have to be a developer to get on board and do various things within the industry and help the ecosystem and the infrastructure. There’s lots and lots of different areas that you can get involved in. So yeah. Get involved, fix the money, fix the world.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. So one of you is stealing Jack Mallers and the other one’s stealing from Marty Bent hey. They’ve got that in influencer training. Don’t worry! But yeah, thanks very much for joining me guys.

Danny and Zakk:

Thank you so much, Stephan. We really appreciate it.

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