SLP365 Anita Posch – Bitcoin For Fairness in Zimbabwe and Zambia

Anita Posch, bitcoin educator, podcaster and founder of Bitcoin For Fairness joins me on the show to talk about her recent trip to Zimbabwe and Zambia. We chat about:

Why she went
Crypto Scammers vs Bitcoin Education
Bitcoin software and hardware
Main hurdles to adoption
Government views on Bitcoin
p2p Bitcoin

Links:

Sponsors:

Stephan Livera links:

Podcast Transcription:

Stephan Livera:

Anita, welcome to the show.

Anita Posch:

Hi, Stephan. Thank you very much for the invitation. It’s a big honor to be on your show finally.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah, of course. I see you’re doing some interesting work and I wanted to chat about your travels and your work in Bitcoin education, as I’m sure you will be happy to tell us about. So do you want to just tell us a little bit about what you’ve been up to recently?

Anita Posch:

Yeah, I was in Zimbabwe and Zambia with Bitcoin for Fairness, the initiative I founded to spread knowledge about Bitcoin to the people who need it the most. And I was in Zimbabwe two years ago. I think I was the first podcaster or Bitcoiner to go there to research it, research the use of Bitcoin, the state of adoption, the problems that people have faced there, if it’s actually really possible to use Bitcoin, and if people really use it. I wanted to go there again to see what has changed. And in my preparation phase, somebody from Zambia sent me a tweet and said, Hey, if you’re in Zimbabwe, don’t you also want to come to Zambia? And then I looked it up on the map and so it’s actually the neighboring country in the north of Zimbabwe and I went there. And I think it was a big success for me, in a way, because one of my goals was to set up a Bitcoin-only group in every country because most of these countries they are crypto-blockchain blockchain-crypto and a lot of scams are going on and things like that. My goal is to sow the seeds for Bitcoin-only adoption in these countries. And yeah, that’s what I did and what I’m going to do in the next couple of months, too.

Stephan Livera:

Excellent. And so I’m curious as well—why Zimbabwe? Is there a particular reason for that particular country?

Anita Posch:

So yeah, one of the reasons is that we are always talking about Bitcoin in Zimbabwe or Venezuela because those are the countries with the highest inflation globally, and that Bitcoin would be a great fit for people there to be able to save money, to not lose that much value like they do with their local currency. Also, you have currency controls in both of these countries, and I thought, If Bitcoin can make it there, it can make it anywhere. Like that, in a way, because if the technology is usable in these hard circumstances because there are a lot of technical problems still—the Internet is slow, it’s very, very, very expensive, there have been Internet shutdowns by the government and things like that—and I thought, If it’s usable there, we can use it everywhere, and it’s the base case for using it globally. And other than that, I have to add: I have a friend living in Zimbabwe and she helped me very much to set everything up. Because as a regular, like a tourist, you don’t really go to Zimbabwe because it’s really difficult to travel, to come around, it’s very expensive even for us to rent a car, the streets are full of potholes, it’s very dangerous. There are not even street signs, you know? There are no trains or public buses like you’re used to in Western countries. And so that was also a reason why I was able to go to Zimbabwe.

Stephan Livera:

Right. So if I had to summarize it: you’re saying you see a very strong need for, obviously, Bitcoin, this inflation resistant, open source, free money. So I’m also curious as well, because some people might be thinking, Well, in a low-income country or low-wealth country, it’s difficult to actually save with Bitcoin because you tend to be living very close to your income level. You’re spending a lot of what you’re making and it’s therefore hard to save. What are your views on that? And are there still avenues for adoption in Bitcoin use there?

Anita Posch:

Yeah. I mean, it’s true—that’s really a problem. People are very poor there. So you need to know the average director of a school or a teacher or a doctor earns about $300 or $350 US dollars a month. And that’s not in US dollars—it’s in the worthless Zimbabwean dollar. And if you rent a small house, it costs you $400 USD, so I really don’t know how people make their living there. They are working very, very hard. And they’re in the informal sector, because most people don’t have a regular job like we know it. They live hand to mouth, they do subsistency farming—I think that’s the right word—and live off that. So they live off maybe 50 US dollars a month. And therefore, of course, they need to spend all the money they have just for their basic living needs. And also, they know how much their own currency is losing value. So because of the inflation, you buy stuff. As soon as you have the money, you buy it. Like, a story, for instance: Ms. [Ora], the Headmistress of the school I visited—because we did Bitcoin donation campaigns in the last year so that she can open the school again—she said to me, This is the place for 10 computers. We have 120 students and we want to have 10 computers. So far now we have one and I then said, Okay, how much is a computer here? And she said, $250 US dollars or something. And then I said, Okay, Bitcoin for Fairness is donating now $250 US dollars in Bitcoin to you. And like two days later, she said to me, Ah, here is a picture of the computer I bought—it’s a used computer for $250 US dollars. And I said, What? That was fast. And she said, Yeah, if you get these things, if you even make it to be able to buy it, then you buy it immediately. So she went to a friend who exchanged Bitcoin to US dollars or to local currency for her—I don’t know—and then she bought it immediately. So yes, saving is really a problem there, and it’s also not in the of minds of people. I also know a guy who is earning Bitcoin for 5-6 years now with his online marketing work, but he’s always exchanging it—he’s always trading it. And I said to him, I mean, you know how the value of Bitcoin has been increasing in the last years. Why do you still do that? Yeah, he says, It’s just like—it has to go. I have to do this. Also in general financial literacy is not very high, and they also don’t have the possibility to save at the moment. So I think Lightning is very important, because if only earn $300 USD a month, you maybe are able to save $2 US dollars, you know? And so Lightning adoption is very important I think there also.

Stephan Livera:

I see. And so, as you were mentioning earlier in other countries or in other places around the world, people are not very clear—and I think most people are not very clear—on the thesis behind Bitcoin as, say, you and I the other Bitcoin people are. The average person out there is probably thinking of it like, Oh, it’s crypto. And then they’re getting sucked into these random crypto scams because they’re into this get-rich-quick mindset. And so I’m curious how you perceived that when you were there in Zimbabwe and in Zambia? Were you seeing that? And then I guess part of your journey, or part of what you’re trying to do here, is try to shift them away from that mindset. Can you tell us a little bit about that mindset and how prevalent it was?

Anita Posch:

Yeah, exactly. That’s a huge, huge, huge problem for Bitcoin adoption. Everybody I met and talked to was asking me, Is Bitcoin credible? Isn’t it a scam?—I know someone who was scammed into Bitcoin or another cryptocurrency scam. When I was there, I did a talk in Zambia at the University of Zambia, an introduction to Bitcoin, and the next speaker next to me was a guy who shilled Axie Infinity, you know? And then you know how close you are to all the scams. And it’s really a problem because even people who have the education level to start with Bitcoin, or started in the last years, they were turned away because they saw that their friends were scammed. They don’t believe in the get-rich-quick scheme. And there was a guy who said to me, You know, I didn’t use it—I never tried it because I didn’t want to get scammed. And when I told him about [it] that it’s an open protocol, there is no company behind it, you don’t need to buy a starter package, you don’t need to bring someone else in, and there is no making a profit of 100% in three months—and then it’s like eye-opening to these people to see that you don’t want to sell them something. I spoke with another guy who was scammed five years ago, and he lost I think $500 US dollars, which is a huge amount for him. And I was telling him all the things about Bitcoin, what it is. And he then in the end said, Okay, what are you going to sell me now? And I said, Nothing! I’m not selling anything here! I’m just explaining what Bitcoin is to you. So it’s a lot of scams—but not only with crypto. When I was in Zambia, I read a paper headline saying that 200 people got scammed out of their Kwacha—Kwacha is the regional currency—because a scheme told them they can double their money in three months. So it happens with all money or financial instruments or people who promise other people something—that’s the sad truth. And that’s the thing why I think it’s so important that we really go there in person. I mean, there’s a lot of free Bitcoin education online—excellent Bitcoin education—but you can only build trust if you’re there or if other people are there. My intention is to go there, to help out where I can and where I’m asked to, and then to build these Bitcoin groups where you have like, say, ambassadors of Bitcoin or something. I mean, we don’t have this formal name, but [ambassadors] who are Bitcoin maximalists. I found some in Zimbabwe and in Zambia who are really keen on organizing their own meetups then, but they need a little bit of this initializing set up help to meet each other, because there’s a guy, for instance, Alexandria, he’s sitting in Bulawayo, he’s a Bitcoin Maxi, and he felt very alone because he never met any other Bitcoiners. And when I did the talk in the capital in Harare, he drove six hours by bus to Harare to attend. And I think it’s fantastic to see that the people are there. They only might need some help at the beginning, because it’s also hard to access hardware wallets or a Raspberry Pi to set up a full node and things like that.

Stephan Livera:

Right. And what was the state of smartphone adoption penetration? Because I understand that can also be a thing where maybe somebody’s only got a feature phone, and then it might be understandably a bit harder for them to actually have their own Bitcoin keys and hold them in their own wallet.

Anita Posch:

Yes. To be honest, I don’t have numbers about that, but what I see is that a lot of people have smartphones—mostly Android—because it’s cheaper, and many people also have those old Nokia phones. And there is a very, very high adoption of mobile money in Zimbabwe as well as in Zambia. You know, like M-Pesa in Kenya, there are services like that in Zimbabwe and Zambia too. And so people are very used to [using] money via text messages on their phones. And this is also more reliable because if you have an Internet shutdown or the Internet is expensive, people can’t afford to use the Internet but they still can use the mobile money. But mobile money of course has it’s disadvantages: it’s centralized, sometimes the government says EcoCash, the company, you have to change the way you give out accounts or you have to freeze accounts, and this is happening on a regular basis. And also they are deducting 2% of every transaction—be it a small or a large transaction—via that mobile money as a tax. And so I think that if we had something like text-based Lightning or text-based Bitcoin, this would be a real, real, real thing that would bring adoption forward—I think that’s really the thing that’s needed. And I know there’s Telegram with the Telegram Lightning bot and things like that, but people don’t use Telegram. They all use WhatsApp and Facebook, and people have so-called Internet bundles, so you can only access the Internet via WhatsApp or Facebook, for instance. So I’m not really sure if they even can download wallets via Play Store then. So that’s really a hurdle for adoption, I believe, so text-based Bitcoin would be great.

Stephan Livera:

Right. Yeah, that’s gonna make it a lot harder, I guess, because yeah if you need a wallet—I mean, you’re probably operating in a custodial wallet context at that point, and depending on [having or] not having Internet would just make it extremely difficult. I mean, yes, you can in more well-planned scenarios, but generally speaking, you will need it. So that makes it a bit difficult. So out of the people you spoke to, how many of them would’ve had smartphone Internet credits to be able to just download a wallet? And what kind of wallets were you working [with] or teaching?

Anita Posch:

Yeah. Okay, so the people who came to my events, they all have a smartphone. Most of them also have a laptop—old laptops, old smartphones—but they can use it. So I would say that in the general population also, a lot of people—I mean, I was out of town on the countryside and people have their smartphones. Because it’s also a status symbol there to have one, and many people, you’re right, are using exchange wallets. Like, the Blockchain wallet, for instance, is still a thing there, and I tell everyone, Please change to another wallet, yeah? So my way to explain or to recommend wallets is that I wanted to recommend a wallet that can do Lightning and Bitcoin. There, you have the BlueWallet and the Muun Wallet. And actually I prefer the Muun Wallet for these kind of people because they are complete newbies. How do you explain the different between Bitcoin and Lightning now, yeah? So for them it would be great. And also, with the BlueWallet, it’s better from that point that I’m always telling people, Write down your seed—and the Muun Wallet doesn’t give you the standard seed—so I rather recommend the BlueWallet. But then you have Bitcoin and a Lightning wallet in the BlueWallet, and how do you get Lightning easily into Bitcoin now, yeah? So it’s one of those two wallets in most cases. The Muun Wallet additionally has the problem that the first step you need to verify—basically the connection to get your password back via e-mail, and many people don’t have e-mail in these countries so they couldn’t use the Muun Wallet. But the BlueWallet then is in Lightning—it’s custodial—it’s also something you don’t really want for that people in these countries where censorship is happening very often. And yeah, if people are only into using Bitcoin on-chain, then it would be the [Blockstream] Green wallet that I’m recommending. And sometimes people still want to have altcoins. A lot of people want to use altcoins—then I’m recommending the Edge Wallet in that case. So basically these are my recommendations, and always trying to tell them self-custody your coins, otherwise your government might come and take it. And that’s a thing that Zimbabweans understand very well, immediately basically, because their government has taken their money a lot of times.

Stephan Livera:

And on the topic of governments and censorship resistance and the legal environment, what is the prevailing attitude that you saw at least from the government in terms of Bitcoin? What was their Bitcoin policy, if they had one?

Anita Posch:

Okay, so there is basically not really a Bitcoin policy. There is no regulation or something, which I think is a good thing, actually. But many people think it’s a bad thing. So in 2017, for instance, 2016-2017, there was a Bitcoin exchange in Zimbabwe—they even had a Bitcoin ATM in the center of Harare where you could sell and buy Bitcoin for US dollars. But in 2017-2018, the government cracked down, and I think all of the founders of the exchange went abroad. And [now] there is no exchange in Zimbabwe. And the idea of the government—or what they say—is: We embrace blockchain. Blockchain is good. But Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies, we want to keep that offshore. That’s really something I think the finance minister said last year: We don’t want Bitcoin here. And of course they don’t want Bitcoin here, because it gives people control over their money, and control of finances of money in Zimbabwe is very much in the hands of the government. Just as an example: if you’re a business doing import/exports and you need US dollars to do that, you have to apply at the central bank, and there’s an auction every week where then the rate between US dollars and Zimbabwean dollars is fixed. And then those companies will say like, I need $100,000 US dollars to buy goods from abroad. The central bank then grants you this—but you don’t get it. So basically, the central bank is then paying your bill in the other country, you know? So the central bank controls all relationships that companies from Zimbabwe have. So that’s their stance in a way, yeah?

Stephan Livera:

Yeah, so that makes it quite difficult then for import and export businesses, which in turn makes it difficult for people inside the country to run their own business, or if you want products and services from outside the country. And of course, there’s an obvious Bitcoin use case here, but the challenge then is how do you get Bitcoin? And I think it also comes down to being able to earn Bitcoin as well. So maybe if you’re a high tech, high skill worker in Zimbabwe or Zambia, you can probably figure it out and get paid from outside. But I think the question then is: how accessible is that? And how could it be improved in terms of accessibility there?

Anita Posch:

Yeah, I think the accessibility is good. I mean, like one example, this online marketer, he’s earning his money for a few years now via Bitcoin. So all the possibilities we now also have to earn Bitcoin or earn satoshis via podcasting, via video streaming, via blogging and things like that, I’m always sharing that knowledge in my talks, but the problem is that most people have no basic idea how Bitcoin works or what the set up needs to be. So they want to go from zero to podcasting and streaming money, you know? And I think that’s a long stretch. So I think there’s first a need for basic Bitcoin education, and then on top of that, you can do that. So if it’s going to be easier and easier to adopt these technologies like earning Bitcoin from abroad, then more and more people will use it because the average African person is 20 years of age. They are very keen on learning and they know they have to do something online because there are no jobs in their countries. So I think there will be a huge wave of adoption coming from there.

Stephan Livera:

So in terms of opportunities to find Bitcoin work online, do you see any opportunities there? I mean, I know there’s platforms—things like Fiverr and Upwork and things like that. And even in the Bitcoin world, I know there’s one called Stakwork as an example, and there might be some more coming. Do you see any projects like that that would really have a high leverage or high impact in countries like Zimbabwe and Zambia?

Anita Posch:

Yeah. I mean for instance, Podcasting 2.0 is definitely a thing that’s interesting, or selling digital goods via BTCPay Server, for instance. But I think the first step is to get full nodes into the country. So that’s actually our next goal is to do a donation campaign that people in Zimbabwe and South Africa or Zambia are able to set up a full nodes. And so that we also share the knowledge with the people who are developers or so interested in Bitcoin that they want to learn everything, that we share our knowledge, go there, and show them how to set up a node and to run it together with BTCPay Server so that they are their own bank. And those people can then spread the knowledge and adoption to their peers. And that’s basically I think the point where a little bit of help from us is needed because, for instance, you can’t get hardware wallets in Zimbabwe and Zambia. Nobody I met except for people who are traveling a lot and have the money had a hardware wallet. So we have a cooperation with Trezor and brought some Model Ones to these countries to the people. I’m going to South Africa in May and I’m going to visit Bitcoin Ekasi, which is a community project you may have heard of—they are like Bitcoin Beach. Bitcoin Beach is their model, and so they already have six—or I don’t know how many vendors—so they want to set up a circular economy and they also don’t have hardware wallets. And the organizer said to me, It would be fantastic to get a full node and to have our own hardware wallets, to secure the money, because the Bitcoin Beach wallet for instance is a great tool, but you need developers who know what they’re doing with it. So people like me who are a little bit technical but not enough, I couldn’t run the Bitcoin Beach wallet for a community like with, I don’t know, 500 people, you know? And that’s the same in Bitcoin Ekasi for instance: many of those community builders, they also just learned about Bitcoin. They’re also middle in the middle of learning how to use wallets, how to exchange Bitcoin to South African Rand, because to be honest, if you need to buy something, people want the local currency or US dollars still, yeah? And so I think adoption is very, very early, and so the knowledge that we have to share is a very basic one. But then I think if this base layer, in a way, of knowledge is built, I think then it can go very fast.

Stephan Livera:

Okay. So I think there’s a few things there: with hardware, it may also be about getting and using low-cost devices. So as an example, Coinkite, they are coming out with Satscard and Tapsigner, and these are more like NFC cards that you can use. And this might be like a cheaper, low-cost way of getting kind of hardware wallets—obviously not as secure as a full-fledged hardware wallet, but still usable, and maybe that’s an example there. But it is interesting the attempt to model Bitcoin Beach and put that out into other countries. And of course I’d love to see it. I think with the Bitcoin Beach model, as I understand, there was a donor behind that who helped seed some funds into that initial community. So do you see that? Like, that would also be required then in the case of Bitcoin Ekasi and other project people using that model?

Anita Posch:

Yeah, I think definitely there needs to be a little bit of help. Like, I’m not sure if it needs to be a big donation or something like that, but at least setting them up with the technical infrastructure, sharing infographics, educational material also for children, and in a way that people understand, because education levels are not very high. So I’m working on getting infographics done of my book because the book itself is in a way too big for people to read all of that. So to show them the basic security concepts, how to use Bitcoin safely, and how to store it safely in easy to read image material—so I think for these things, there is definitely money needed. And I know that Bitcoiners are very generous in that sense. And that’s also my goal or my work, is to find donors for Bitcoin for Fairness so that we can go there and share the resources with the people on the ground.

Stephan Livera:

In terms of on the ground, I’m also curious if you have any thoughts or insights to share from a peer-to-peer perspective? For example, if people want to trade Bitcoin for cash or use, say, Bitcoin to get vouchers like a Bitrefill or a Coincards, what kind of options are there for the peer-to-peer users and peer-to-peer exchange?

Anita Posch:

Yes. You know, Zimbabwe is also sanctioned, so most Zimbabweans, they can’t go to an exchange, an international exchange, because as soon as they enter their address where they live, they can’t use it anymore. So actually there’s the need to go peer-to-peer. In Zambia, there is now the first Bitcoin exchange, it’s yellowcard.io. But other than that, you have a lot of peer-to-peer groups, but just most of them are crypto. It’s very easy actually to exchange Bitcoin to US dollars or local currency—I’ve done it in both countries. Of course, you need to know about these groups. And for instance, in Zambia, I exchanged Bitcoin to Kwacha, the regional currency, in a WhatsApp group, and the guy was doing human escrow for me, in a way. So he lended his trust to the guy who exchanged the money then, and it went very fast. And it’s the same in Zimbabwe. There’s really not a problem to exchange Bitcoin to other currencies, because people want Bitcoin. So there is a lot of peer-to-peer exchange going on, and it’s also a mirror of society traditions. Like, you have a lot of community feeling there. It’s not so much this self-sovereign, I’m independent person—it’s more, How can I help the community? So I’m always also branding Bitcoin as a community money in that sense. And so I think one of my hashtags is, Keep the unbanked, unbanked, because yeah, as soon as you start with all those exchanges, people have their money in the exchange wallet and they are dependent again and things like that. So I really welcome the fact that there are no exchanges or that it’s hard to access, because as I said, there are also other options like you said the Satscard or for instance there’s Azteco. You can buy Azteco vouchers in South Africa in many shops. You don’t need to know anything about Bitcoin. You just go in there and say, I want a voucher for 20 US dollars in Bitcoin. Then you send the voucher code to your family in Zimbabwe, and they can redeem Bitcoin over the Azteco website directly into their wallet. It’s not complicated. Or there are people who are playing games on THNDR games or on Zebedee. They earn satoshis with it. And with [those] satoshis, they go to Bitrefill and top up their phones for it. So there are a lot of possibilities already, and I’m sure that this will grow in the future.

Stephan Livera:

And so in terms of the peer-to-peer trade aspect, as you mentioned, it sounds like it’s mainly done through WhatsApp groups, and there is a little bit of kind of a web of trust, basically, of maybe certain individuals who sponsor you from a trust point of view and say, Oh, this person is legit—you can trade with them. And then people are able to trade in that way, right?

Anita Posch:

The funny thing or weird thing is then, there are also peer-to-peer groups, like WhatsApp groups, where you then have to identify yourself. So that’s how they keep scams out, yeah. So you really have to go to this person and show your ID, and then you are added to the group. Which is also in one way a good protection against scams, but on the other hand, you then have to KYC yourself, basically. But I think it also works, as you say, from person-to-person, like saying, That’s my brother or my cousin—you can trust him, you know?

Stephan Livera:

Right. And so that’s one way to build the peer-to-peer aspect of this. And so I’m curious as well then, is there a discussion that goes on around like a premium? Like, is it seen like, Oh, this is a premium to do the exchange? Or is it more like a maker-taker model? The person who’s there being the market maker, they are the one who gets a premium, and the taker who is taking the offer, they’re paying the premium? How does that work?

Anita Posch:

Actually, I didn’t have to pay a premium. We exchanged Bitcoin on basis of the exchange rate in the Bluewallet or in the Green Wallet or something like that. So there was no price to pay then. So it was just like a peer-to-peer exchange without taking a fee.

Stephan Livera:

Right, yeah. Because I guess at some level, if somebody’s doing it—and I’m curious as well, are the people doing that doing it professionally? Or is it just like a side thing for them?

Anita Posch:

You can’t really say. I know that there are a lot of people who are doing it also on a professional basis. I mean, the ones I met, I know them and they are doing it as a side gig. And also in Zimbabwe, you don’t want to be known as such, because actually it’s not allowed. What they are doing is basically being money dealers, and that’s not a thing that the government wants to see, so everything is very secretive. You have to trust the other person on the one hand to not get scammed, and on the other hand that you don’t all fall into the hands of the government. Because there’s also one thing I need to mention: when I’m interviewing people there, I’m always asking, What can we talk about? What can we not talk about? And most times people tell me, Please, don’t talk about the government. So there is no free speech in these countries.

Stephan Livera:

Yeah. I mean, it’s a common thing that we’re seeing around the world, and hopefully we’ll see more and more people who just use Bitcoin in their own way without having that interference, let’s say. So what do you see as some of the main hurdles then to further adoption? Is it mainly the education part? Is it mainly the tools? What would you see?

Anita Posch:

It’s the education part, I think. So the first thing is that we need to get rid of that notion that Bitcoin is a scam. So educate people about it, that it’s an internet protocol, it’s a technology like the Internet. But on the other hand, you know, in many African countries, people are very wary against the Internet? So it’s a Western thing for them. They also didn’t trust the Internet, so why should they then now trust an Internet technology that has to do with money where many people in their surroundings have been scammed already? So financial literacy is also very important. Like, what is a scam, yeah? How can you detect what a scam is? Then other hurdles that we did not speak about—the internet cost, I think I said that already. I also heard people saying to me, Bitcoin feels like a luxury because you need a smartphone or you need a laptop or you need a hardware wallet maybe, and then many people still also—it’s very common to think that you can’t afford a Bitcoin because it’s $40,000 US dollars. So just this basic fact that you can buy a fraction of a Bitcoin is also not very well-known. And then there’s also this thing that people want exchanges, yeah? I think that’s the only thing where they think they can get Bitcoin, and then they say, There’s no exchange in Zimbabwe so I can’t use it. So again, we’re falling back to education. But as I said, I think it can go very fast then, so if the first people are using Bitcoin or have been using it, they will tell the others. And if you make positive experiences with it, you will tell everyone because it’s just a superior technology, it’s a superior money for people there. And it also gives them access to the whole world in a way, you know? At the moment you can’t send money from Zimbabwe to Kenya easily, for instance—it’s just not possible. People don’t trust the banks. The banking system is completely broken. And so I think there’s a lot of potential too, although we have those hurdles.

Stephan Livera:

So let’s talk a little bit about Bitcoin for Fairness. What is it? And what should people look out for?

Anita Posch:

Yeah, it came out of the work I’ve been doing in the last years—also in my podcast—I had a focus always on African countries and Bitcoin where it’s needed the most. And then I thought, I would like to broaden that: Bitcoin for Fairness is an initiative that wants to be a platform, so more and more people who are interested in the work I’m doing and who think that this is important, they can join and they can help. For instance, the idea is to build a bridge between Western countries, where we are more far, I would say, into adoption, and we have the tools, that we connect with people in the continent and also in Latin America, who, as I said before, feel very alone most of the times. And to also give them access to the technology we have. And the great thing is also that, as I said before, we were able to set up a Bitcoin-only group in Zimbabwe and Zambia, and also in both countries Bitcoin for Fairness has writers, editors, or are people who will write stories about their Bitcoin journey in their words, in their situation, which I find is very interesting for the general Bitcoin public—let’s say it that way—to see Bitcoin in action. Or people can also tell us what are they struggling with? What other problems? And we pay those editors for their work. So actually we are also creating Bitcoin jobs in these countries, and that’s what I want to do also in the course of this year—like in May, I’m going to South Africa as I said before. And then I’m not sure if I can make it to Nigeria this year, but my book is at the moment being translated into three Nigerian languages, which I’ve never heard of to be honest: Igbo, Hausa, and Yoruba. And I Googled it and I saw that each of these languages is spoken by 20 million people—so it’s huge, and therefore I might also go to Nigeria this year. And in autumn and winter, I want to go to Latin American countries, maybe Venezuela, Brazil, because my book is also being translated to Portuguese at the moment because Brazil is huge. And there’s I think also a lot of need for Bitcoin there. And so yeah, that’s basically what Bitcoin for Fairness is doing, and reporting about my trips from the ground and connecting people. Because as I said before, I think it’s important that we show our faces there and help where we can and where people are open to it. And that’s what we want to do.

Stephan Livera:

Excellent. Well yeah, I think that’s some great insights there for listeners who wanted to hear a little bit more what it’s like on the ground. So for anyone who wants to find you online, what’s the best place?

Anita Posch:

Okay. The Bitcoin for Fairness website is bffbtc.org. That’s the place where also the writers from Africa are writing. And then best is actually to follow me on Twitter because I do the most updates. That’s @AnitaPosch. And also my newsletter is a good resource because then I send out if there are new videos and things like that, it’s anita.link/newsletter.

Stephan Livera:

Okay, fantastic. So that’ll be in the show notes, guys. And Anita, thanks for joining me today.

Anita Posch:

Thank you very much for the invitation, Stephan. Bye.

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