SLP459 Q1 and Bitcoin Security with NVK

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NVK (of Coinkite.com) rejoins me to chat about the latest in bitcoin security: 

  • New device Q1 with QR
  • New Coldcard firmware
  • Combining security techniques
  • Bitcoin Gardening, not Ossification
  • OP_VAULT
  • Nostr

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Podcast Transcripts:

Stephan – 00:00:25:

NVK, welcome back to the show.

NVK – 00:03:23:

Thanks for having me, man. It’s been a while.

Stephan – 00:03:25:

Yeah. And obviously lots happening, hardware stuff is going on. I wanted to obviously chat about the new Q1 device. Of course. I think that’ll be the main thing to chat about, but yeah, and all the Ordinal stuff and Nostr and all this crazy stuff. But look, let’s start with Q1. I think that’s what people want to hear first. So can you tell us a little bit about the Q1 device?

NVK – 00:03:47:

Yeah, so essentially we made the device that we’ve been wanting to make a QWERTY. So a full keyboard hardware wallet for many, many years. And we’ve been sort of like prototyping and experimenting with it for a long time and we just couldn’t find a reason to sort of make it, economically speaking, by just adding a keyboard kind of thing. I still think the majority of the market is going to want the MK4 because it is smaller and sort of like thinner, cheaper kind of thing. But there was one small breakthrough. We found a camera module that used to be expensive, but sort of like it became economically viable as a product and the same with a bigger screen. So we’re like, okay, great, so let’s start designing a keyboard. Right, so everything in this product is kind of like from scratch, right? It’s not like we’re using a store bought sort of like a keyboard or anything like that, but anyways, so I wanted to make this device for a very long time and stars align kind of thing, and we made it. So well, we made it, we’re making it. It’s still going to be quite a few months. I mean, we hope to ship out this year. If there is no sort of supply chain, sort of like surprises, we should be able to.

Stephan – 00:05:12:

Are we talking like mid this year, late this year?

NVK – 00:05:15:

I think the risk is having to do more iterations on the plastic mode if it comes out right, which you should, because we’re using the same plastic, we kind of like know our stuff already well for this, but there’s always the oh, no, the clip for this doesn’t do just quite right. We need to update the mode kind of thing. Right?

Stephan – 00:05:39:

Yeah.

NVK – 00:05:40:

If that does happen, then that pushes a month, pushes two months pushes three months kind of thing. But aside from that, there’s not a lot of unknowns. We are using the same sort of architecture as Mk4. Right. So it’s the same MCU, same secure elements. If between now and then new chips come out, new interesting secure elements come out, it’s possible we integrate that in because we already have prototypes of this stuff running. Right. It’s all sort of like good, but because it’s long enough time and the MK4 design is already very well understood by us, it shouldn’t be too hard to add new secure elements and a few other cool feel of things there.

Stephan – 00:06:29:

Awesome. Yeah. And so I guess in terms of the highlights then, for the new device, it’s got QR code, which is obviously the big thing, and it still retains the NFC and it still retains it’s got 2 SD card slots and it’s also got a screen. And so then the idea is, just like the QR scanning devices that are already out there on the market, you’re now able to offer a QR code signing.

NVK – 00:06:54:

I think it’s two things, two big things on this. One is a big screen, right. We want to be able to do other sort of interesting UX things. So having a bigger screen is great. You can display bigger QR codes as well with more data in them. I really just like animated QRs. They’re terrible for people to read, but they might still be needed. We’re still sort of like studying kind of and this is softer, right. So it’s easy to update and sort of change and improve. I think we need a better animated QRs back. So maybe we work on that too, if we have time. So that’s that part on the QR, Right. Another thing too, is that we couldn’t find a touch screen that was safe to use because they have a lot of preparatory stuff going on in them. So for now, it’s going to be this kind of screen. Right. And then on the QR part, the scanner, we don’t like the idea of using normal cameras, shooting that unfiltered data straight into the processor. Right. That’s how most how do all its do that? Because your private key is in memory on the MCU and you’re receiving all that random data in there. It’s not hard to see an exploit that tries to do buffer overflow on the MCU or some other kinds of attack. And your private key is in memory at the same place as this stuff is happening. Right. It’s also like they don’t read well, like the screen. That’s why we wanted to wait to see if he ever this QR modules would come to the market with a price that’s economically viable. This is very similar to like supermarket scanners, the hand scanners. So it’s a module that all he does is read QRs, barcodes, all that stuff. Right. So technically we could do barcode seeds now too. And it’s very good at reading. Like you point it reads. There’s no sort of fiddling. It’s like hungry for QRs kind of thing. It has that vibe, right. What we do is we pipe it talks serial port with the MCU, right. So it’s a much more narrow protocol to talk to. The data is coming is very, very sort of like specific type, right. So it’s a lot better security threshold. I think Flaxman brought this up way back in one of his episodes that was a concern in our view is also a concern and wanted to address that if we were going to make this the module itself, it’s like closed manufacturer, it’s their own crap in there. But because of this separation, this essentially firewall through serial, it’s okay, right. So that’s nice. Another thing that sort of like we’ve always debated was to do alkaline batteries versus lithium batteries. I’d like to have a device that’s future proof so you don’t depend on battery packages. It does make the device thicker. Again, I like to say this design for us, it’s kind of like a bulky device and we think it’s pretty cool. And we don’t think people should walk around with harder wallets. Anyways, the pocket is now where you put your harder wallet, right? Anyway, it does have three AAA, so that should last enough time. If you don’t use the flashlight a lot. The flashlight is part of the QR module, so we figure, hey, why not add a button to turn on the flashlight as well? A lot of people who are in this space understand why this is kind of important. Many people keep these devices in safes, like actual good safes in places that may not be as well lit. And most very good safes won’t have lights inside because they don’t have power going or anything like that. So you have to use the battery ones and those die or safe deposit box sometimes is not well lit. It sounds silly, but it’s actually very useful. The lithium ion battery packs, I think they’re like pretty cool. They’re nice power density as well. One of my fears with them is because they are opaque packages. Like you could put some malicious crap in there that I don’t know, like radios to the nearby office when the thing is on kind of thing. Not hard to develop that. But you know, like it’s a bit like it gets into the paranoid sort of like sort of tune foil hat attack surface, which is where we live, right?

Stephan – 00:11:54:

But I think there’s also a standardness of just having triple-A batteries. Everyone knows where to get them and it’s very stock standard. You can go to a convenience store and buy the batteries and off you go.

NVK – 00:12:06:

Listen, I’m not going to pitch it all ourselves, right? I mean, it’s not impossible that I don’t know, the next version maybe uses like a lithium package inside the case sealed or something. We’re experimenting and all. Like, this is something we wanted to make because we wanted to make like Mk1. I’m a little surprised at how many people want it. I mean, the preseasons were a little crazier than I thought. I guess there is a demand for a mountain man device.

Stephan – 00:12:33:

Right, that looks like a BlackBerry. Maybe people just want to they want a BlackBerry and it’s like an expensive flashlight also becomes part of the..

NVK – 00:12:43:

You want to type-out your passphrases, right, like fast. And even though a touch screen would have been great, I can’t do that safely yet, at least. So might as well put a qwerty there. Another very cool thing is there’s a button there that looks like a tab button. It’s like a stick and an arrow together. That button is going to be for expanding passphrases. Sorry. Like a BIP39 words. So like you can just like autocomplete. There’s a lot of like little things that we want to play around with.

Stephan – 00:13:16:

Cool. So that’s like the calculate the 24th word scenario.

NVK – 00:13:20:

Or just expand from the two words, show me the next one kind of thing.

Stephan – 00:13:24:

Sorry, like autocomplete.

NVK – 00:13:27:

Exactly.

Stephan – 00:13:27:

Got you. Exactly got you. And certainly being able to type in your passphrase because right now, if you’re clicking around, that can take a little bit of time. But all of these things, it is a trade off, right. And you have to think about all of these aspects, right. The price point. So I guess now in terms of coinkite’s range, you would say like, you’ve got kind of at the cheaper end, you have the SATSCARD, which is kind of like an opendime. Then you have the tap signer, which is more like a $40 tap signer sort of start level. And then I guess going up you have the Coldcard MK4, which is about $148, something like that. And then this, this one, I think the preorder was $199. Right. So

NVK – 00:14:05:

Yeah. And we hope to keep it within that. Like the the design was very deliberate, right. So the reality is like, the normies are coming, right. And like any market, like, I mean, people price is like one of the biggest drivers. Right. There is a reason why Ledger is one of the best sellers in this market. It’s like price is huge, right. And every maker seems to kill their very high expensive devices. Right. Remember like Ledger Blue, I think was called, it was like €600 was very nice. Had some issues because he was prototyped, but it doesn’t go anywhere. We think that like 200 ish is like as far as you can go when the next BullRun comes and the market sort of like, really comes in. And so we designed this with economies of scale that we really have on chip purchases. Right. So it’s using the same MCU. There’s a lot of cool things there that are similar and you get all the security. Right. I don’t know, I think it should be a slum dunk in terms of capturing the people that want a device that’s a bit bigger, that does things that they want to do. Yeah, it’s exciting. I can’t wait to have a proper production test on my hands to do stuff with it.

Stephan – 00:15:27:

Right, yeah. And the bigger screen I think is going to be useful as well, especially for people who want to do more advanced things. Right. Like you were saying, you’re going to have Miniscript. People might want to do multi-sig and then verify okay. Which are the other X-pubs in this setup. Right. Now you can do that, but you’re scrolling through in terms of the multi-sig

NVK – 00:15:44:

Address Explorer is huge.

Stephan – 00:15:46:

Yeah, that’s it.

NVK – 00:15:47:

Right. We’re not so one thing we don’t want to do is make sort of like a true sort of collar GUI, sort of like too much of that stuff. We still want to keep it sort of within sort of like a simple concise textual base UX. Right. We might add a thing here and there and maybe in the future it’s more like an interactive command line kind of thing, like where you have maybe a pop up or something. But we do want to keep it sort of like simple, concise focus on the actual data as opposed to a bunch of like pretty crap around. Yeah. So multi-sig, it’s going to be nice. The Address Explorer would be nice to have a big screen, more data on QRs. We can have more soft UI things on the UI as well. It’s nice. More real estate is always better.

Stephan – 00:16:48:

And I presume there’s going to be some familiarity for people who are already ColdCard Mk4 users. Yeah, it’ll be sort of similar in how you use it.

NVK – 00:16:57:

Unless we have a lot of time, which I don’t think we will, it’s going to likely be a scaled up version of the existing UI with improvements to actually fit on the screen and sort of like be nice. Right. But it’s going to start as an extension of that, as an improvement of that, and then just iterative sort of improve that. Because even though MK4 has a tiny screen, I think the UX on it as much as you can get some criticism because it’s not as easy whatever. Because it’s not touch. Right. It’s the kind of UX that prevents you from losing money. Right. My priority is make sure that UX really sort of keeps you from screwing up instead of just make sure that you have a one tap sign for that. Use your phone. Right. People are sending and receiving part of their savings here. Right. So the mindset really is, how can I prevent you from losing money? Right. So that’s sort of like where our head is at.

Stephan – 00:18:05:

Yeah, sure. And I think the focus as well on Air gapping. So that’s also something that is there quite strongly with the SD card and the QR code, I think, as I understand as well from your earlier comments as well, it seems that the more interactivity there is, it’s like you’re losing the air gap in a way. Right. So maybe that’s why Bluetooth doesn’t really count as an air gap. Probably NFC doesn’t really strictly count as an air gap either. So really it’s like SD card or QR code.

NVK – 00:18:37:

But even on the QR side, if you send it straight to the MCU, it’s like it’s a big gray space. Right. At a minimum, there is no wires that’s number one, no wires that do data and then that’s true. That’s the beginning of air gap. Right. And then radios. Absolutely, right. Like, I mean, if they are complex radios or whatever yes, they are not air gap. Even though there is an air gap. It’s kind of funny. Bluetooth is definitely no, WiFi is a definitely no these are complex long distance sort of like radio types. Right. NFC sort of like yeah, it’s not air gap technically, but it kind of is. You have to be super close to it. It’s very easy to sort of segregate yourself from other things because the radio the way it works, it’s kind of fine, but it’s not really air gap. So it’s kind of like in the middle there. And then you have the QR next, like the camera next, which is like, yes, is air gap. There is a few sort of concerns. I think we addressed them with the serial and then to me, then there is Sneakernet. Sneakernet is the best way of doing Air gap for the true paranoid when you still need to shuffle data back and forth, right? I mean, that is sort of like the best you can do. So that’s the scale.

Stephan – 00:20:08:

Yeah, yeah, I think that’s fair as well. I think people like one of the criticism is this idea that oh, well, even with an SD card, you’re putting in another computer inside and all this, but even there, I mean, it’s sort of like, well, you have to do something you can have to use.

NVK – 00:20:21:

One is nobody has demonstrated an attack of SD card in all these years. Two is you can just dispose SD cards, have a file all fresh, you know what I mean? It’s like, okay, so you just keep on tossing them out. Right, who cares? And then it’s not as much of a concern because even though let’s say the most advanced stocks and that figure out how to do something there, right. You can still use a fresh new card to take the data out.

Stephan – 00:20:47:

So the idea is that you would have it saved to the device, change out the SD card and then put a new SD card in to take the saved PSVT out and use that to input into the computer.

NVK – 00:21:01:

And also you could be sending that to a computer that’s also offline, right? And then from that computer you can do another hop if you want to also listen. This is not like SD cards. Like cameras read SD cards, right? There’s a reason why it’s a Max 32GB SD card. So this is the narrow set of the SD cards, the old school FAT32 kind of SD cards. It’s very narrow. We are using this in a very narrow way. The way we don’t just execute data from the SD card. It’s not simple. There is a lot of nuance there. I think a lot of it is just like simple fud from ignorance.

Stephan – 00:21:39:

Right. Personally, I like to use it as part of a multi-signature. Like if you’re talking about serious money. But I understand you have your criticisms of, let’s say I would say it’s fair. Like Beginners should be maybe using a guided service, whether it’s Unhained or someone, get an expert or a professional to help you and then for the more advanced users, keep it simple. But I think if you want to learn multi-signature, you can, but you kind of have to be very slow and methodical and precise about your backups and you’re keeping a copy of your output descriptor and all of these aspects of it also to kind of make it actually a more secure setup. So the way I’m doing it is if you’re talking about like your big huddlestack and you have maybe an MK4 and like a Q1 and maybe some other devices as part of your overall quorum, well, the whole point is that you’re making it harder and harder and harder for somebody to realistically take your coins. Obviously.

NVK – 00:22:37:

Yeah. I always say multi-sig is fantastic. The problem with multi-sig is the complexity for the amount of money that the average plea is going to put on. It’s stupid. For most people, the great majority of the people single-SIG plus plus phrase it’s like an amazing perfect solution, right? Well, perfect between quotes, right? And then there are people who have a lot more money, right? And for those people spending the money and the time to learn about multi-sig or find a collaborative multi-sig or something, an audit, right? Because listen, if you have $100 million to keep, right, you’re not going to just trust any of these collaborative solutions either. You’re going to want to like, hire people to do diligence on them too. So, like this nothing is simple, right? And and I think we’re finally like past the point now where like, Bitcoiners going to be a little bit more grown up and sort of like have nuance over custody. So we’re not just on Twitter, just saying, twelve DVDs, right? It’s like, let’s have nuance, right? People have different piles, people are different locations, they have different needs, different security thresholds.

Stephan – 00:23:56:

Yeah, cool. So let’s chat about the coldcard firmware. I know there’s been some recent updates on that. I know the recent version, for example, has the output descriptor export for single-signature wallets. So that’s kind of an interesting one because I know this is something the guys that are in bitcoin core have been pushing Descriptors as the new way, and it seems that now the hardware and the software are starting to adopt Descriptors. So do you want to tell us a little bit about that?

NVK – 00:24:24:

Yeah, I mean, we’ve been Descriptor-pushers since the beginning. As soon as actually before Descriptors came to core, we already had implemented it. It’s a much safer way for people to do backups than just the victory nine or writing down your derivation path or your script type or all that stuff. So output descriptors are amazing. It’s a shame that very, very few wallets support it. I think at the moment is just Coldcard. Hang on, I have a little website here o, utputdescriptors.org. So Bitcoin Core, ColdCard, Specter Desktop, Sparrow Wallet, Nunchuk, Moon, BlueWallet, and BTCPay server, and bitcoin and BDK, that’s it. So ColdCard is the only hardware. So Salvatore that keeps on badgering me to do Miniscript do output the scriptures first, sir.

Stephan – 00:25:29:

I’m not sure, maybe they do have that now, I think maybe for their new Miniscript stuff.

NVK – 00:25:34:

I don’t think they do it’s just Miniscript. I don’t think they do output Descriptors.

Stephan – 00:25:38:

Yeah, okay, I’d have to check.

NVK – 00:25:40:

Let’s just say that so he gets some shit and then if it’s true, then I’ll eat some crow on Twitter after.

Stephan – 00:25:48:

Well, I mean, it’s a good thing.

NVK – 00:25:50:

Just so that people listening. Yeah, we’re all friendly around this stuff.

Stephan – 00:25:54:

Well, I know he was pestering you for Miniscript so you can get him back for one.

NVK – 00:25:59:

It’s only fair.

Speaker A – 00:26:00:

Yeah. And so I saw also in the recent firmware update, there’s Micro SD card as second factor. So I guess this is again, like, you can have your different models and that’s the other thing, right? Like, let’s say I’m a malicious person and I’m coming after you. I’d necessarily know what your setup is, right? I don’t know if you’re doing CDX or I don’t know if you’ve got a duress pin, if you have a Brick Me Pin, if you have an SD card as your second factor, if you have multi-signature, if you’re using a passphrase, if you’re using a combo of these things. I think that’s part of the idea, right?

NVK – 00:26:31:

It’s a Labyrinth. Yeah. So my idea is when a bad guy knocks on the door, he looks at a ColdCard, he cries, right? Because it’s like, okay, I really don’t know how to approach this person, right? Because he can have infinite trick pins and sort of like it’s a big labyrinth of plausibly deniable things, right? So anyway, a lot of people are lazy and don’t want to remember trick pins or do that. My idea is, hey, why don’t we use a micro SD and I think with somebody else who sees this idea in my head about a year ago, I can’t remember who it was. Why don’t we use a micro SD card, the serial of the actual card that’s in the chip, which is clone above. But it doesn’t matter in this scenario to be the second factor when you log in. So if that micro SD card is not in the code card when you boot okay. The code card could do different things, like a trick pin, right. It could brick, it could erase the seed, and I think like a few other sort of other options on the trick pins, it’s very cool because you can have it around. All micro SDs kind of look the same. Right. So nobody’s going to know which one is what. Yeah. If anybody turns it on without you being around, like kind of like an evil made scenario, they won’t know that moving forward on that could destroy the device. Even if they took your pin, let’s say they had a camera behind you or something, they’ve been watching you. If they have the pin now, they wouldn’t be able to follow through even if they had the correct pin.

Stephan – 00:28:11:

Yeah, there’s so many different options.

NVK – 00:28:13:

Yeah. Which is not true for the trick pins. The trick pins, they’re great. But if somebody had a camera and they were watching you closely right, they could figure out which one is the correct pin. Right. With this one, it’s pretty cool. You really get that extra security there. And you can travel away with your SD card, and it’s kind of like nobody can get in, right? Like, why are you away without you taking it?

Stephan – 00:28:38:

And meanwhile, of course, in some other location, you would have the backup of that. So let’s say you accidentally screwed.

NVK – 00:28:44:

Yeah, of course. Always have a backup, right? Backups that are given. Right. And ideally, if you’re using Single-SIG, you do CDXor on your backup.

Stephan – 00:28:53:

And I think it’s funny because obviously not a criticism of you here, obviously, but it’s like we’re talking about all these kind of, like ways to make your stuff more secure. But then, like, some of these hacks you hear about are people just keeping their keys in the cloud or keeping their keys on a hot server.

NVK – 00:29:08:

Oh, yeah. But, you know, like, this is not our target market. This is something we’ve noticed especially through the years now, the people who contact us for issues where it’s more the dark stuff or husband complicated things too much or whatever. But we don’t have a lot of users who gave away their seeds on a DM or took a picture of their seed and put on their icloud. Right. This is more like a ledger mass market problem for us.

Stephan – 00:29:47:

Back to the show in a moment. Are you still using a plain old Block Explorer bitcoin is now growing. It is a multilayer ecosystem and. Mempool.Space can help you analyze it, and I find it really useful. Personally, whenever I’m sending a larger transaction, I like to check on Mempool.Space so that I can target my fee. And also, when it comes to looking for new Lightning Network partners, I like to use the Lightning Network Explorer on Mempool.Space with Mempool.Space. It’s open source and you can even host it yourself. Now, if you’re with an Enterprise mempool.space offers customized features. You can have a custom instance with your company’s branding or increased API limits and more. Go and find out more at mempool.space/enterprise. Next. As you know, I’m a fan of Multi-Signature, and I believe it can increase your security and help you remove single points of failure in your setup. But I also know it’s not easy for everybody to achieve that on their own. Unchained Capital can help you. They have a concierge onboarding program and they have vaults which enable you to go to Multi-Signature. Instead of keeping all your stuff in a single-signature wallet or leaving your coins with a custodian or an exchange. The concierge onboarding program is really simple. You pay upfront, they ship you some hardware if you need it, and they do a call with you. They walk you through the process so that you are now comfortable to withdraw out of your custodian or exchange, or even out of your single-signature hardware device and put it into a two or three multi-signature vault. Now, there’s all kinds of additional features and added values, such as the Inheritance Protocol, which includes things like the step by step checklists and letters for the executor or trustee. So go to unchained.com/concierge and sign up for the concierge onboarding program. BTC Prague is coming June 8 to 10th. It’s going to be awesome. I’m really looking forward to it. This is going to be the biggest bitcoin event in Europe, so if you are in or near Europe or even further, make sure you come along for this one. This is going to be a fantastic networking opportunity and a chance to learn about bitcoin and meet a range of awesome people bitcoiners, whether they are speakers or not. And we’ve got a range of awesome speakers. People like Michael Saylor and Robert Breedlove was recently announced. Also, So I’m going to be there. I’ll be one of the MCs, and I’m looking forward to seeing a bunch of you there. There are industry or whale tickets available over @btcprague.com, so the industry ticket includes an extra one day business conference. And if you’re interested in the whale ticket, there’s going to be four unique whale zones, white glove service, and premium food and drinks throughout all three days. So don’t waste time. Get your tickets before the prices go up, go to btcprague.com, use code livera and get a discount on your ticket. I’m looking forward to seeing you there. And now back to the show. Although I wondered maybe the question is maybe once you become bigger, like once Coldcard becomes a bigger and bigger, maybe you do start to get those more mass market questions. So I guess maybe it’s a growing

NVK – 00:32:34:

Yeah 100%, it is. And we see some of those with tap signer, people are a little bit more confused. That’s why we try to make it like idiot proof. For example, the backups go encrypted to your cloud thing, right? We try to make it so that you can’t screw yourself even if you really wanted to. Although never underestimate people trying to lose their money.

Stephan – 00:32:58:

And that’s the reality. There are people who would just take things and just screw around with them and just completely even people from like supposedly professional occupations, even people like a pilot or things like this who are meant to be very reliable and very sturdy or very reliable, basically they will just screw around with things and just totally. I think sometimes all of us can just be stupid or do dumb things at times.

NVK – 00:33:24:

Yeah, listen, that’s why good security setups don’t require you to think. Because, see, we can have even like a court of who’s like super knowledgeable, shadowy, super colder, like lose his money because he made a custom set up that, you know, like he didn’t pay attention that day. Everybody has a bad day, right? And it could be that one bad day where, I don’t know, like say, say like you have a margin, like, like contract that you’re super stressed and you have to deal with that or you broke, I don’t know, you had a fight of your spouse or something, right? You’re like super stress and you go to your set up and you need to do a transaction because of the time of something, right? And if you have to think too much, you just have this massive attack surface now for you to screw yourself. Maybe you have your Cubes OS laptop all set up and then you accidentally stick in the wrong micro SD sorry, the wrong USB stick on it. And that one just happened to have an exploit. You want to be in a place where you’re a lot safer from yourself because people have bad days.

Stephan – 00:34:33:

Yeah. And I guess that’s challenging us all online, even as you mentioned. I guess there’s two examples, right? If cubes are thinking I’m thinking of Peter Todd there. But in the example of keeping the server online, I mean, that’s like Luke, right, with Luke and the story there because people were saying and people were coming out saying this stuff like, oh, see, even if a core developer can’t keep his coins secure, what chance does the average person have? But it could also just be that he was using a very out of date set up.

NVK – 00:35:00:

Well, think about it this way. Just because people are an expert on some things doesn’t make them an expert on other things. I talked to Luke a bit and we sent him some coldcards. The reality is since Hardware Wallets came out, even an ideal setups, right, people have been robbed a lot less. Right. I like to say any Hardware Wallet is better than no Hardware Wallet to provided there from the say like bitcoin.org list of Hardware Wallets, right? Like I’m not talking about like, you know, all those closed crap around that like support 50,000 Shitcoins that, you know, like you don’t know the team or whatever, but out of say like coldcard Trazor and ledger, you’re pretty well taken care of, right. So you can’t depend on having a specific vintage of an IBM laptop that just happened to have the right chipset and maintaining some complex. It’s unrealistic, right. And then you die and now your spouse has to deal with this complete stupid setup. Right. We need better first we need reasonable, right? And then we need to sort of like improve on that.

Stephan – 00:36:20:

Yeah. And I think the challenge is keeping it secure but also keeping it simple. And that’s I think trying to find things that can give people simple and secure is really the goal. And I think what some people end up doing unfortunately, is they over complicate because they think it’s going to make them more secure. But the real skill is keeping it simple and secure at the same time. So that’s interesting. And I think one other firmware feature I’ve noticed is this ephemeral CID one. Now I know it’s something maybe from the prior firmware update, but I know it’s kind of an interesting one. So the idea is that you can import another CID and use that as part of or inside this one device. And so I guess it’s almost like a CID signer then, isn’t it? Kind of like a CiD signer functionality.

NVK – 00:37:14:

Yeah. So we added that because I needed to help a friend sweep a reasonably size stash from a CID, right. And I didn’t want to load that on computers or not in the mood of setting up some crazy set up. The whole thing was like a new code card was not available. Let’s put it this way, in that situation, this is what essentially he needed. And I sort of did some thought on this and I figured, hey, why don’t we just load CID on coldcard in read only mode and don’t erase the stored CID, right. So you have your coldcard stored CID. But I wanted to load extra  so that he could export an electrom skeleton file so that he can then go create the transaction and sign it with that secure coldcard. So that a lot of people sometimes need to transfer old wallets to a new old wallet, right. But they only have a single hardware wallet and they are like in some place somewhere in the world where they can’t get anything else fast enough. So there was that kind of situation. So being able to load in a cid ephemerally, right, like just temporarily on memory for you to spend it out, it’s a good solution. It’s like really nice way of spending or exporting sometimes just a read only because you export your read only, you put in your computer or whatever and then you can just forget that cid. So, yeah, very useful so that you can have less coldcards in case you need some of that. The seeds are their model. I think it’s great for multi-sig. I don’t like it for signal’s sake. I’m kind of very vocal about it. I don’t think people should be touching private key material on a daily basis, even though you can do that now with coldcard. I don’t recommend it because if you have your private keys available to you in your house, what’s the point of having hardware wallet? Like somebody’s going to come and hit you and take it and your phone camera could accidentally see it. Right? There’s a million ways in which you can screw yourself with that. And in their model I think the problem is you can’t guarantee there was erased either just due to the design hardware nature of that. But I think it’s very cool for multi-sig. I think it’s very cool for recovering or transferring from a specific CID. Yeah. So that was sort of like the idea of it. So now you support it, it’s there.

Stephan – 00:39:45:

Yeah, that’s cool. And I think it makes sense for users who maybe don’t have new devices hanging around. And, yeah, I think it’s probably like you’re saying, it’s probably useful in the case where you want to help a friend. And because the general dictum the general advice is never type your CID words into a hot computer. For a large stack, right? Maybe for smaller stacks, you’re okay, you’re comfortable with that risk. But for a large stack, you just don’t do that. And if you don’t have a new device on hand, then that’s where having this ephemeral CID feature can be useful for you. I guess presumably this would be more like a last resort feature though. It’s kind of like a recovery and then send out into somebody’s new setup as an example because maybe say that friend of yours is not going to trust that your device is actually that it is ephemeral, you know what I mean? Because there’s always going to be that fear that once you’ve typed it in.

NVK – 00:40:35:

You’re in the middle of the desert somewhere, right, you cannot get a wallet. You’ve learned that your CID, original CID may be compromised because the backup got compromised. When you’re in a pinch, you want to transfer from the old one to the new one using the same device. It’s a great way of handling that. Another thing that happens, and I had to do this a few times is you have like a phone wallet and it’s not like a lot of coin, but it’s enough that you don’t want to put it on a computer and you want to sweep those keys. This is a great way of doing that. You put the CID in and you sweep those phone keys even though maybe you don’t use that phone wallet anymore, you don’t trust it or whatever reason. That’s kind of nice. So yeah, that’s the idea. It’s like using the code card as your sort of seed management sort of solution.

Stephan – 00:41:25:

Yeah, it might be useful in different ways that come or become more obvious in the future. And so I think coming back to that idea of simple and secure and just kind of zooming out a little bit in terms of bitcoin and security in general, right? Because obviously you and I and probably many listeners, we want more people to be able to use bitcoin securely. Like we want that, we want more people to join us. And so I think that also brings this whole question about changes in bitcoin and things like OP_Vault as an example. So obviously our friend James O’Bierne has been talking about that and trying to explain what it does, how it helps. That’s just an example. Right. Another example I like is Amy Prevatt. So for me personally, I think conceptually, I’m not a developer, that I’ve reviewed all the code of them, but conceptually I like the idea of these because they help us scale bitcoin or they help us self-custody bitcoin or make it more feasible for people to do that. But on the other hand, and I appreciate this, we have to also be conservative and we shouldn’t just like willy nilly change things. So where do we land on that? How does one shepherd a change through in bitcoin given the community and the culture and all that?

NVK – 00:42:43:

Oh my God, that’s like a two hour conversation, maybe ten hour conversation. We did 2 hours of Op_Vault at the bitcoin review Pod. My thing there with Anton and James and Ben Cartman again, and we still didn’t get to it’s. Just a long conversation, but I think covenants of some kind will need to happen. So that’s first, right? We have no choice. One covenant solution is going to have to happen. CTV was sort of a galaxy brain, super cool, interesting, but beyond the comprehension of most people can even fathom in terms of possibilities and things. So that makes it too scary because we don’t know what could go wrong and stuff. Even though a lot of work was done in sort of proving it’s safe. But I don’t know, I’m not comfortable with it personally. And then Bryan Bishop’s vaults don’t work because you can’t prove it. Ephemeral seed was deleted. That was just cool, sort of like speculative work kind of thing. But it’s not viable. Right. There was one more I can’t remember now and then, and then there’s Op_Vault by James. Like, James is a legit, sort of like core person. He knows what he’s doing. He knows what he’s talking about. He’s done some deep, deep research on this. The paper is actually quite straightforward, is a narrow primitive. So it’s a new bitcoin primitive up vault, very narrow, which is nice. So last sort of like possible issues, last possible tax surface or just bug surface. And an Op_Vault creates like a very sane way of doing some basic types of covenants, which gets very complicated fast to explain on whatever, like 15 20 minutes that we have left here. So what I’d say is we’re going to need something. James is not married to this. A BIP is coming out probably like imminent, so that people can start to sort of like the debate on it. Let’s put it this way. So he’s not married to this. If something else comes out that’s like better, simpler and sort of works, then so be it. But we need something, and we need something soon. As you know, I am an Ossify kind of guy for Bitcoin, right? But like, when I mean ossify, it’s not that, like, software won’t be changed ever again, right? And I think a lot of people who are not technical don’t understand this. Even Ossified Software needs gardening. And I’m trying to introduce this concept of gardening to people so they understand. We talked a lot on that episode about it, where you need to update the software because computers change the attack surface changes, right? Like we have the Unix bug that’s going to have to get fixed at some point.

Stephan – 00:45:51:

I think a really good example is the TOR V2. deprecation in favor of Tor V. That’s right. Bitcoin Core had to change. If we didn’t have that change, you wouldn’t be able to use Bitcoin with TOR.

NVK – 00:46:02:

Off time verify. Sorry, locktime verify was at it. Nobody even blink an eye. Just sort of got nobody even talked about it. Right.

Stephan – 00:46:12:

Maybe it’s just like earlier times, there was less scrutiny or maybe the network was smaller.

NVK – 00:46:17:

No, that was after SegWit, if I remember right, wasn’t it?

Stephan – 00:46:23:

No, CLTV. I think they were pre-SegWit CLTV.

NVK – 00:46:27:

Yes, but that was after the PTSD war.

Stephan – 00:46:30:

Yeah, I think so.

NVK- 00:46:32:

And then there was the up return wars, and then there was the original block size wars. Bitcoin was 32 megabytes blocks. And then it went down to one. Right. Satoshi just changed that. And then we went to four. The thing is, things will change. We want to strive and sort of target and trend towards almost no changes, especially with new features, but new things will come and they are going to be necessary. So I think people need to sort of start thinking about Bitcoin that way, that there will be things. It was not that brute that added Dickbutts to the blockchain, right? It was the SegWit discount and the extra for like, 4x increasing block size. So it was the block size that made the big blocks.

Stephan – 00:47:26:

Specifically the witness discount, right.

NVK – 00:47:31:

But the blocks were made for megabytes, right. And the idea is blocks should be full, so you should be angry at the block size, not at the Dickbutts. I mean, you know, like it’s because it was already possible to add all those descriptions and things into bitcoin before that. And with enough fiddling, he could probably have done that even before the discount too. Is it the discount?

Stephan – 00:47:58:

I mean, it was always possible, right? The question is more just like the cost to do it, right? So I think some people have been unfairly saying, oh, Taproot is to blame, which is clearly wrong. Right. It’s not the fault of Taproot that now there’s inscriptions on bitcoin. It was a possible pre SegWit. It was possible even pre P2S.

NVK – 00:48:16:

Just he made it straightforward, right? Because the Taproot witness doesn’t have it has a discount, but it doesn’t have a limit. The witness for normal transactions does have a limit on the script size. Right. But it wasn’t really possible. But it just wasn’t possible. This straightforward. Let’s put it this way. I do think one amazing thing might come out of this. I think that data compression on blocks is going to be much more advancedly thought through because of this. So we might actually get some benefits out of this, aside from having pictures on the blockchain, which that’s sort of like a moral sort of issue and whatever. I’m not going to get into this in a short-time, but

Stephan – 00:49:04:

Yeah, I guess bring you back to the point, really, that there may be some people who just don’t want to change at all. But I think if we want bitcoin to be available to more people and we want more people to be comfortable with it, I think things like Op_Vault personally, I would be pro Op_Vault. I would like to see people support these ideas so that we can make bitcoin more accessible. But crucially, of course, we want to make sure everything is safe before we bring anything in.

NVK – 00:49:30:

Yeah, long winded road Op_Vault is really, really cool. You have a means now of well, you will have a means of creating a script that could be informed of certain things that happen, right? So, for example, say you have your vault and your funds are there and you set it up so that if more than a certain amount tries to get out in a certain period, you’re informed by like a wallet that watches it like a watchtower, some form of thing like that. And then like, you can press the nuclear button, right? So like, that vault gets withdrawn to a new vault or some key that’s on a harder wallet under a lake or something. Do you know what I mean? You have an out, right? So you can do reactive security versus proactive security. Right? Yeah. You can know and have time and a window to sort of get the money out of the difficult situation. Right. I think if this is done very well and the solutions are amazing, I mean, there’s a possibility that we actually don’t need more multisig or harder wallets in a way that we do now.

Stephan – 00:51:00:

Yeah. Or maybe it’s combo together. Right. Like as an example, I’ll bring you back to that example where let’s say I’m the evil attacker guy trying to go after you. Now, I don’t know whether you’ve got a Duress pin or whether you’ve got a Multi-sig or a CDEX or passphrase, et cetera. And even if I do get through all that, I don’t know if you’ve got a vault hidden under all of that.

NVK – 00:51:19:

That’s right. And the vaults don’t even dock your UTXOs. This is so cool. Like you can still have privacy on that vault. And so one thing that was bugging me before about this proposal was that you would have to have preset fees, which in a 20 year sort of like thinking it’s like hopeless. Right.

Stephan – 00:51:45:

The fees could be so much higher by then, et cetera.

NVK – 00:51:48:

It could be whatever. Right. So you would have to have anchors.

Stephan – 00:51:55:

Output, I think, or something.

NVK – 00:52:00:

Like another change to bitcoin right. For that to be able to do. But James gave us the news in the last episode that he figured out how to do that.

Stephan – 00:52:12:

I think he was saying without package relay or one of these mempool policy things that Gloria is working on.

NVK – 00:52:18:

Yeah, that’s really cool. So now it’s like nice and tight. I think the discussion is going to probably be fairly healthy because this is so narrow.

Stephan – 00:52:28:

Yeah. I think one other thing is maybe some of the other soft fork discussions get bogged down because something isn’t perfect. And I think maybe we kind of have to take something that’s not perfect. But it’s a big improvement as long as it’s safe.

NVK – 00:52:43:

And by fear that thinking is the slippery slope on that, I think we need to do our best to do make it perfect. There will be unintended consequences, period. Like you’re saying, by not being perfect. Right. But as long as we can sort of put enough effort into trying to understand what the consequences will be as opposed to surprises. Mind you, it’s just the timing of Casey with ordinary inscriptions versus Taproot and everything was just sort of aligned. But he’s an extremely bright individual and he was a quarter, by the way. He would have figured out a way of doing this regardless. Right. So this is kind of the mindset that I think is important. It’s not a good example, even though it’s the one that’s like rubbing on everybody’s face anyway. I think the discussion should be very reasonable. The problem, in my view, is going to be the activation. Right. It’s just soft work. But on this one is going to be tricky because we are all PTSD from activation. I am not a fan of speedy trials. I am not a fan of lots.

Stephan – 00:53:52:

You’d prefer like a flag day sort of activation?

NVK – 00:53:55:

I want game of Chicken where the network either isn’t consensus or isn’t, and I think we can do a better job at displaying a consensus. But I don’t like the slippery slope of speedy trial. I feel like that gives an upper hand to the miners for this update. I don’t think it’s a big deal. It’s not like something that matters, but I think we we should find a way of, like, keeping it consistent. But I think I’m in a minority, so, like, I think we’re going to end up with a speedy trial. Again, I think a lot of technical people and industry prefer the certainty. Even though it is giving the upper hand to the miners, it is giving some certainty to the network.

Stephan – 00:54:39:

Yeah. Maybe some of the large businesses might prefer speedy trial. I’m not sure. But yeah, let’s see what the discussion is. See what people are saying. Hopefully we can get enough people on board with the idea of improving some aspects of bitcoin, such as Op_Vault. Also wanted to get your thoughts a little bit on Nostr. So I know obviously you’ve been big into Nostr. I’m curious if you think some of the hurdles will be overcome. So, as an example, how does this network deal with things like spam and DOS? Is it through using sats as the pay to play? Is that how we do it?

NVK – 00:55:15:

It’s already being dealt with. You can use the global feed again, at least on Damus. So you’ll be a mix of many things. Right. You’re going to have pay to relay. You’re going to have pay to join a relay. You’re going to have relays of spam filters. Right. So it’s a censorship relay that just gives you an updated list of things to censor. Right. Which might be spam. You’re going to have filters like the filter idea that I had for Whale, which is only show me stuff that my people I follow post, but also show me things that the people I follow follow. So second degree, that greatly expands the network. Right. And it’s kind of enough in a way that might be all you want.

Stephan – 00:56:06:

Yeah.

NVK – 00:56:07:

What else you can filter by, you can use some machine learning there to figure out some of the crap that people post because Nostr is censorship resistant. It’s going to be a lot easier for spammers to spam, but also because we don’t have a single vendor of clients. Right. You’re going to have a lot more work done in clients against spam. Like, you can see that already. Like, I mean, Damus, like, dealt with spam faster than Twitter, right? Like Twitter is still having spam problems. Damus right now doesn’t and people are migrating. I mean, like zero hedge is already on Nostr, right?

Stephan – 00:56:44:

Like oh, nice. I didn’t know that. Yeah. Okay, cool.

NVK – 00:56:47:

Like, it’s crazy how fast, like, people people, I think, understand now that, like, Nostr is like the lifeboat. Some are there because you already want to be there. Like me. Right? Like, I’m tired of Twitter negativity and the current thing and all that stupidity. So I want my sort of cozy.

Stephan – 00:57:05:

Safe space for now until the masses come to Nostr. Let’s see. But I mean, look, personally

NVK – 00:57:11:

But then you can have your own relays.

Stephan – 00:57:13:

Yeah, of course. And I’m supportive of Nostr. Like, I have it as well. I think it’s cool. I guess I just have to sort of see more growth and see it coming. And I think it is early days, right? It’s extremely early days, and yet we still have so much advantage.

NVK – 00:57:29:

To me, this was sort of like an invention, kind of like Bitcoin was. It’s like a concatenation of many different things that sort of arrive at a new paradigm and has that vibe. It has very novel sort of ways of thinking about data. And I’m done being humble about its growth. It’s like parabolic. People are coming and it is winning, and it is a lot better than mastodon by orders of magnitude. And it’s an engagement. You get more engagement on Nostr than you do on Twitter. Okay. By the numbers. Jameson actually did a little research on that. It is happening, and I think it’s time for us to sort of stop, sort of humbling it down. It’s like, no, it’s like the shit is happening and people need a new home that is censorship resistant.

Stephan – 00:58:26:

Yeah. And it’ll be interesting to see because I saw, and I’m sure you saw as well, a lot of Chinese people were joining Nostr because they saw it as a sensor resistant way to

NVK – 00:58:38:

Turns out that a lot of that was Chinese spam. Once we dialed in some spam filters, a lot of the traffic died, but the real traffic is sort of going in. There is a lot of it was a lot of people from Hong Kong came in. Pretty cool.

Stephan – 00:58:54:

Yeah. And I think one aspect that may be difficult for people to deal with is sometimes if you want to talk about freedom and censorship resistance, sometimes you end up having to deal with the people who are not. So maybe these are people who are prickly or maybe they’re not that popular, or for some reason they’ve already been canceled on the mainstream platform. Now those people will come and use Nostr, and it’s kind of the same.

NVK – 00:59:18:

Idea Bitcoin is then you don’t have to go to shit holes, right? Like the Truth Socials and whatever, one of these sort of like ten different pick your new sensor. Right? And those places are horrible. It’s like Hivemind of that same exact type of thinking. There’s no diversity of ideas. There’s no discussions being had. People. Agreeing with each other on hating on some other platform. So it’s like they’re just posting a tweet and then just hating on it as if the world give a fuck. Right? So, yeah, this is different. You can have different communities and different people sort of interacting, which is the value of Twitter.

Stephan – 01:00:01:

And that’s a good point, because you’ve got Gab and Truth Social and all these other ones. But like you said, they kind of are built around the personality of maybe a few people, and I think they haven’t really been able to really build a proper network effect. And then you’ve got stuff like Mastodon, which obviously you were hosting the Bitcoin hackers instance. And of course, which is garbage.

NVK – 01:00:22:

It’s garbage software, like stupid protocol design. There is a reason why Master never took off. It’s ten years old, by the way, the activity pub is terrible. Terrible design.

Stephan – 01:00:36:

And then all the feedback.

NVK – 01:00:37:

I was the censor. I was the censor and benevolent dictator of bitcoinhackers.org, right? I’ve been slowly telling this. Next month I’m killing it. I’m going to point that domain to Nostr and so be it. I don’t want to be the benevolent dictator. It’s not cool. Plus, I mean, every single other instance blocked us because we don’t have strict moderation. What’s the point?

Stephan – 01:01:04:

Yeah, exactly. Because then the workies get into it. And the point, I think, is, how do you have a technology that the workies can’t destroy? And then maybe if you are a workie, then from your point of view, you at least want to have a technology that you can not get shot down from. Right?

NVK – 01:01:21:

Because if it works, don’t want to be censored by China. Right? And Mastodon is like one click away from being censored. Mastodon is so bad that they didn’t include quotes, tweet. Right? Because it encourages people from Dunking. Like, just the fact that you can do that is so dumb. Right. It’s the wrong way of thinking about free speech and thinking about resistant information and proper dissemination of information. It’s the wrong sentiment to go with to begin with. Right. I don’t think they have the heart in the right place.

Stephan – 01:02:00:

Yeah. So I’m hopeful that some of this stuff can get resolved. And as you said, maybe it’s like a Nostr equivalent of cloud flare. Maybe it’s like a Nostr can have filters built in, like people who you follow second degree or third degree connections, maybe, and then cutting out beyond that because you don’t want to open yourself up to spam or DOS or some other kind of attack. And then maybe from the privacy point of view, I know one other criticism people have had is this idea that it’s really important to use a VPN, otherwise you’re doxing your IP. Because let’s say I have my Nostr app and I’m connecting to 15 relays. All those relays might know my IP.

NVK – 01:02:40:

Yeah, but that’s an early day, like low hanging fruit easy to fix, right? There’s a million ways you can do this. So one way you can just have clients cash for you, like the avatars and things that are leaking IP. You can have buffer relays, you can have your own buffer relay. You can spin up a relay that just is a client for many relays and then they just read from your buffer relay, right? It’s easy stuff. It’s a non issue thing for this stage. The thing is there’s only so much time, right, and so many people that can code. So in all priorities, right, there is bigger priorities. Like for example, adding Zapping, right? That’s like Lightning tips in the thing. There’s so many people in this that we broke. Wallet of satoshi, like more than once because we were just tipping too much, right? And a lot of people use that. So everything is on a to do list and is very doable. It’s just a matter of prioritizing. What brings people, what helps people first, what helps the network bootstrap? There’s a lot of bounties for it. I have a website called Bountsr, so it’s bount bountsr.org. There is a bunch of bounties there for people to code things and people are picking at it, which is really cool. Yeah, I highly recommend it. I mean, if you want to be like an army use of this, just download Damus on your phone and get working, get tweeting there. It’s a lot of fun.

Stephan – 01:04:20:

Yeah, I’ve been using Amethyst on the Android and works pretty well for me. Still a little rough around the edges, but it is improving pretty quickly over time. So it’s useful, it’s cool.

NVK – 01:04:31:

I mean, this thing just happened in a few months, you know what I mean? It’s just time. You just need time to sort of get the code in.

But it’s moving fast. Really fast.

Stephan – 01:04:42:

Yeah, it’s interesting to see that because at the same time Twitter is having all its issues and all these other platforms are having their own issues. So maybe that’s what pushes people over to actually adopt and use nostr

NVK – 01:04:53:

I mean, the stars are aligned, right? I mean, the stars seem to be aligned, which is really cool.

Stephan- 01:04:57:

Yeah. Whereas I think there have been historical examples where people were saying, oh, this time we’re all moving to Mastodon and we tried it and I think that has happened maybe two or three times, but it never really stuck. Whereas Nostr has I think it has more of a chance of sticking.

NVK – 01:05:13:

I think the vibes are high. And remember, Nostr social media application is like a tiny little part of this protocol can be used for. Right. There is a bounty of twelve BTC for people to rebuild GitHub on it, because you could transport git commits on Nostr and then you can have a decentralized distributed GitHub, which is the social sort of layer, the business sort of logic for git. I have a bounty for somebody to redo medium and substack. I want to replace substack and medium with Nostr. Right. There is a bunch of things there like you can do anything that is sort of like more in a broadcast method. It’s very cool. The conference is going to be the first going to be in Costa Rica.

Stephan – 01:06:02:

Yeah. Unfortunately I won’t be able to make that just because it’s clashing with Vietnam Lightning Con. But wasn’t that canceled? No, the Lightning conference in Berlin was unfortunately canceled, but Vietnam Lightning Con in Da Nang is on kind of late March.

NVK – 01:06:22:

It’s a lot of stuff happening now. As this space grows and things that are happening, there’s going to be a lot more like dates conflict.

Stephan – 01:06:28:

Yeah, 100%. Yeah. I mean, eventually it’ll be impossible to sort of make it to everything. Right. We’re just not quite there yet. But yeah, it’s going to happen to that level sooner or later and then yeah. So I guess kind of closing out. So, I mean, we spoke about Q1, we spoke a bit about Coldcard and just Bitcoin security. I’m curious, do you see any other things we haven’t spoken about or any other trends or directions that you think the industry or things should go from a Bitcoin security point of view?

NVK – 01:06:57:

Yeah, I think Gardware wallets are becoming a lot more sophisticated and sort of like we’re understanding the problem better. The NFC stuff is growing. There’s slowly more wallets doing NFC, which is great for consumers, like, you know, more normally use of things. You know, I think we’re going to see things like Inscriptions and Ordinals be like sort of like the next biggest thing that happens in bitcoin. There is a massive amount of demand for that stuff, like me liking or not liking it. It’s irrelevant. The shitcoiners are running now, like Bitcoin nodes and full nodes because they want their inscriptions there. Right. So that’s an interesting sort of funnel. Right. For bitcoin. You made the blocks bigger. Now have them full. Another thing too is that this quiets out a little bit of the security budget fud too, which is funny. What else? Oh, the Q1 thing before I forget, because the demand was bigger than we thought for the reservations. Get your reservation in if you want, because if he keeps on going like this, we might cap it and then you won’t be part of the

Stephan – 01:08:10:

The first round of Q1 recipient. Well, I’ve ordered mine. I’m definitely looking forward to playing around with it. So yeah, thanks for joining me. NVK listeners make sure you follow NVK. I’ll put the links in the show notes and get the stuff over @coinkite.com and well, I was going to say your Twitter, but no, let’s follow NVK on Nostr. I’ll put a link for that in the show notes.

NVK – 01:08:33:

Awesome, thanks for having me. Livera.

Stephan – 01:08:35:

Thanks. Get the show notes @stephanlivera.com/459. Thanks for listening and I’ll see you in the Citadel’s .

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