Fernando Nikolic, Director of Marketing and Comms at Blockstream joins me on the show to talk about the slightly controversial idea that Bitcoin is Not for Everyone! We get into:
- His background and why he believes bitcoin is not for everyone
- Who is it really for?
- What about savings technology?
- Is there a role for bitcoin evangelists?
- Teaser on what’s coming with Blockstream Green
- How to move forward
- Twitter: @basedlayer
- Links: To Drive Meaningful Adoption, We Should Accept That Bitcoin is Not for Everyone
- Newsletter: Bitcoin Perception
Stephan Livera links:
Stephan Livera 00:01:41
Fernando, welcome to the show.
Fernando Nikolic 00:01:44
What’s up Stephan, good to be here.
Stephan Livera 00:01:46
So, Fernando, I saw you wrote this article about this concept, and you’ve been speaking about this concept of whether Bitcoin is for everyone. So, do you want to just tell us a little bit about where this idea came from?
Fernando Nikolic 00:01:59
Yeah, right so Bitcoin is for everyone. It’s kind of like a slogan that has reverberated in the Bitcoin Twitter community for a while. I feel like a lot of people are saying that and I get the and I get why they. Is that because obviously Bitcoin is indeed, you know, something that can be adopted? By the entire world, right, like. We have pretty we have pretty. Big ambitions when it comes to Bitcoin, all of us right? So, I totally understand like the intention and why they would say something like that. But the thing about. Bitcoin, where we are right now, is that there’s just going to be a lot of people. There’s just not going to. Is it or just fight it or just simply don’t want to know about it? And I think in terms of like us as Bitcoiners trying. To orange pill. anyone, any normie whether it is a family member or friend, anybody in? Your social circle or. Whatever we need to accept the fact that. This thing is not necessarily something that will people will want to understand, even to begin with Right. And I think a lot of the energy that we put into orange peeling people and just evangelizing Bitcoin and talking about its benefits and whatever can be spent more effectively if we actually took a second to think about. Hey, how about I think about this person that I’m that’s in front of me, that is that I’m trying to orange peel and see, you know, what is this persons about? What kind of change are they seeking? What do they want to do exactly, and then figure out if or not Bitcoin actually has a place in that persons? You know life. The kind of like, go to methodology that we have as Bitcoiners is just like the second that we understand Bitcoin, or at least we achieve A deeper understanding on an individual level of Bitcoin is like tell the world right like we want to go at the top of the mountain and scream at the top of the lungs. How awesome Bitcoin is. But the same arguments that convinced you and me. It’s not necessarily going to be convincing the next man, and we tend to kind of like talk about Bitcoin in the same way we understand it. But you know what? I care about is not necessarily. Something that everybody will care about. So, I think us as Bitcoiner is we need to be more intentional and actually accept the fact that hey Bitcoin is not for everyone not everyone is need ready, but there are. Certain groups around the world that for some reason like their life, circumstance or whatever, they are ready right now. They’re willing to listen, and we need to just think about them. And not try. To like orange fill the world. If that makes sense.
Stephan Livera 00:04:34
Yeah, And I will say so there is a course that I curated at the Sailor Academy and that technically is titled Bitcoin for everybody or Bitcoin for everyone. But I certainly understand what you’re saying, and I think maybe the way I would frame it is maybe it’s a time thing, right? Like that, we believe that eventually the world is going to adopt Bitcoin, but to your point, and I agree with that aspect of it, is that not everybody today will understand the point of Bitcoin or will be excited about Bitcoin. There are people and. You know, I guess there are different ways we could come at this too. So, for example, as I’m sure you know, Sergej Kotliar from Bitrefill he frames it in this way of. There are people who use Bitcoin, but they’re not Bitcoiners per say, right, that they wouldn’t go to a Bitcoin conference. So, the analogy he uses is that you know you might use BitTorrent, but you wouldn’t go to a BitTorrent conference or say I’m a BitTorrent, BitTorrenter right? Like there are certain aspects where people just use it out of necessity, and they don’t really care that much. But the movement per say they’re just a user neutral. So, I guess there’s a few elements to that, so. Let’s break that down one further level. So, if Bitcoin is not for everybody, who is it really for?
Fernando Nikolic 00:05:46
Yeah, and that is like that’s the challenge, right? Like that’s where we need to put all our. Energy and focus into figuring out. And The thing is like I do believe there are people doing this and most of those people are actually working at a Bitcoin company because they are kind of like more incentivized to actually take a deep dive into studying that. Like you know, specific target audience. What are they do? What are they trying to achieve? What’s like the job that they want done and then they have to figure out whether whatever product or service that is based on Bitcoin actually serves that ambition of this target audience. And if it doesn’t, Ok you pivot. And if you do, you build a business on top of it and then the way you build the business on top of that is by just being razor sharp with the messaging for a very specific target. Audience and kind of like in the process of doing that you exclude everybody else because you need to realize that whatever you’re offering. Is good enough for a subset that can grow overtime, but that doesn’t mean like, Ok, your target is the world you know in its own. And I think to a certain extent, there’s so many different factors that qualifies you quote UN quote to be ready for Bitcoin. There’s. Not really like. One answer like this is for this particular subset. There’s so many different type of people that are ready for Bitcoin today, whether they are. Very technically inclined and interested in the cryptography aspect of Bitcoin, the decentralization aspect of Bitcoin, there’s a lot of reason for them to be in this space. Based on that alone, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that I don’t know somebody in Argentina who’s trying to get a remote job and earn some dollars. And just want to open to the world through. And that they want to get accepted. They wanna, you know, get paid in Bitcoin. And there’s a use case for them as well. But you put them. Together the German technically inclined person that loves cryptography and the Argentinian young remote worker, they’re just trying to, you know, provide for their family, put them in the same group and all. Of a sudden. No one message is actually going to necessarily stick, so you need to exclude. You need to put them apart. So, that’s kind of like what I’m trying to say, like there is no one formula that fits all and that’s why we should stop saying Bitcoin is. For everyone because. It is for anyone that are willing to listen that are in a predicament. Whether it is you know you’re a resident of a country that has struggled with hyperinflation for decades, that’s, you know, a criteria that would make you ready. But then there are other criteria that will make you ready as well. That is not necessarily that. We as Bitcoiners need to be just hyper aware of these things. If we are serious about. Meaningful adoption, to be honest.
Stephan Livera 00:08:38
Ok, so let’s break that down into types, then types of users. I think a common example, at least in the early years Early-ish. Let’s say. I mean, we’re still early now, but whatever. I think people who are able to save for the long term, I think they I think that’s an important segment that has to be grown personally. Of course, I’m not opposed to spending. I do spend Bitcoin myself. I promote lightning, I promote merchant adoption also. But I think the primary segment. That I’m interested in growing is that saving and self-custody segment. So, that’s kind of how one way I’m seeing it. But I’m curious how you’re seeing it. If we were to look at different segments of the market?
Fernando Nikolic 00:09:21
Yes, like I lead the marketing and communications team at Blockstream, right? And Blockstream have so many different. Products and services. So, through my work I understand now that it’s just people that are interested in mining and I will probably just be interested in mining. Other people are just interested in lightning. And will stay there and then you have people that. Will be interested in both and. The way these. People get convicted about Bitcoin and its use cases. This is going to be very different. So, you gotta like. Try to be as objective as possible, but if you want to be subjective and try like find like the things that really speak to you, I will kind of agree with what you just said? I also. Feel like the savings technology aspect of Bitcoin is kind of like fundamental because I think. If you are able to save if a technology enables you to save because whatever asset is to connect it to that technology is of the properties that will make it accruing value overtime. Time it changes your whole life and then especially so if you are from a place like Argentina, which by the way, I’m from Argentina too. So I know very well, like hyperinflation doesn’t necessarily just oh man milk is 30% more expensive this week than last week. It actually goes deeper into the social fabric of society. You have people emigrating escaping the country, like real talent. That should be in the country to build it, to improve on it. They just go to other countries and help those countries build instead. So that stuff goes really, really deep. And as a result of hyperinflation, you’re just not incentivized to save and if Long enough, time passes. You just forget about the concept. Together and I think if Bitcoin can help these people get that notion of the concept of saving back again so they can actually plan ahead and not look like, you know, they live week after week or day, day by day, paycheck by paycheck, then that’s a massive improvement that really. Goes deep, so I’m cool with that use case alone. To be honest with you, because it has so many ramifications and so much improvement on so on a larger scale, that is, it is really what like good money brings forth. Societal change, so I’m good with saving technology, to be honest. So, yeah, I would agree with what you said.
Stephan Livera 00:11:54
Yeah, and so to be clear, there are different narratives that may appeal for different people right. There may be people who for them, they don’t care that much about the savings aspect and, you know, whatever point is that there are, I guess there are certain things we should focus on. Like if we’re thinking from a, you know, Business School contacts, people talk about this idea of a USP unique. Sales point unique selling point. And so we have to think, what is Bitcoin uniquely good at and what are the areas that maybe it could get competed against on you know in by other products or other services or technology, right? So, if you went back, you know, 10 years or whatever people used to say, oh, banks aren’t open 9:00 to 5:00 or takes 3 hours, 3 days to do a transfer. And so on. But what we’ve seen is all these Fintechs and these things that have kind of taken away some of that advantage that Bitcoin used to be a unique selling point for Bitcoin. But it’s not anymore. And so I think that’s why this kind of focus on the savings technology, at least for now to me, seems really important. But I also appreciate that you know, there’s other aspects, right? There’s this kind of narrative of permissionless, censorship resistant money, right. Like that you can just use it to earn money or spend money without asking. So how are you seeing the different narratives and this concept of the unique sales selling point?
Fernando Nikolic 00:13:16
Yeah, totally agree with you on that, right. And this is the thing like as individuals as just people, we don’t think about these things when we are trying to convince people about anything I mean, Bitcoin is one thing, but just in general, like if you want to convince a woman to marry you, there’s ways to go. About it and there’s ways to not go. About it, right. And we kind of as humans psychologically, we respond pretty much the same. To different ways of approaching right. So, we need to be very cautious about like how we approach things and kind of like not overindulge people with too much information, but we need to always think about who is the other person we’re talking to. So, it’s a very hard question that you’re asking, because it all depends it is kind of like it’s very subjective. But I can try to like go a little bit deeper and see if we can explore a little bit more. Take me for example. My Bitcoin journey, like me being Argentinian, that was like a very deciding factor. Looking back and me understanding the value prop of or the. USP of bitcoin. Because I am Argentinian by birth, my family’s Argentinian Spanish is my first language. But I grew up outside of Argentina, right? So, I spend, I spend, you know, my childhood between Argentina and northern Europe. And I was always asking myself like why do I why do? I live with my mom in northern Europe and why is my dad and the rest of my family in Argentina? Or do I have to go back and forth? Ok, I learned eventually it was because, you know, in the late 80s. Early 90s Argentina went to some hyperinflationary dumpster fires and it was just like impossible to live in Argentina. Ok, then I see these things happen over and over again in my country. Still emigrating to this day, they emigrate. They leave Argentina for better opportunities, and it’s because of the same reason. So I was like always, like, fascinated by that. Like, why is this continuing to happen? Then a friend of mine? Introduced me to. Austrian economics and I was like, Ok now. I see, like Keynesian economics, more like, you know. The properties of the Austrian economics and kind of like how. They thought about things that made sense to me and then Bitcoin came along. Coincidentally, the same friend who introduced me to Austrian economics introduced me for Bitcoin as well, and then I was like, hey, instant click. I totally got it because all these experiences prior in my life just by just being alive and being born where I was born and going through what I went through. All of that, that introduction to Bitcoin clicked instantly. If the same friend came to me and said, bro, this Bitcoin is like the most cipher punk stuff ever, man, you gotta, you gotta go and read. The White Paper dude. And it’s like I would have been like, Ok, fine. I wouldn’t understand. Anything that the white people were saying that wouldn’t be interesting wouldn’t have triggered any interest. So, it’s like we just need to be very aware we need to show empathy, we need to humble ourselves and be like, Ok, whoever I’m trying to orange. What are they gone Through because I can go an orange pill. Somebody else and say the exact same arguments that led me to be convinced about Bitcoin. Hey, Austrian economy. You know, like Keynesian economics is BS, and this is. This is why the Fiat money system is going to collapse soon. I mean a lot. Of people won’t. Really pay attention to that and you see that in so many Bitcoiners I’ve seen so many people on Twitter say, hey, I’m done orange billing people because they always get rejected. They just don’t get the message through. And when you are so convinced about Bitcoin’s properties. And you kind of like. Dedicate your personal life, even your professional. Life to it. It sucks to get that rejection, but that’s only because you’re trying to replicate the same arguments that convinced you to everybody. Just because you think Bitcoin is. Has like the ramifications to change everything in the world, which is true, but you need to just start at one point and then take it. Take it from there.
Stephan Livera 00:17:08
Yeah, and I look, I think I certainly I can echo a lot of the thinking, I think in some ways our journeys are kind of similar. Obviously, I’m not from Argentina, but in terms of Austrian economics and having that same experience for me in 2013. Basically, when I was, you know, really deeply going down the rabbit hole for the first time for me in early 2013 and I was basically, as you were saying, like shouting from the rooftops, trying to teach anyone and any anyone and everyone who would listen. I had very limited success. Yes, there were some people who I got in, but some of them sort of wave it a little bit and then they came back. And now they’re really hardcore into Bitcoin and some of them are now, you know, some of them are like school friends, university people, people like. Yeah, for very. Reasons. But I think the. Question then would be there. Are a lot. Of people who go through similar circumstances, but they’re still not into Bitcoin. So, for example, there’s a lot of libertarians who are not into Bitcoin when it’s obviously, and I’m sure you know as an Argentinian, there’s probably a lot of Argentinians who aren’t into Bitcoin. So, I’m curious why is that? Do you have any perspective on that. Is it that they just have a different concept of how to save like if they got money they would rather buy a property instead of Bitcoin or what would or do they just want to do stable coins or what’s the situation, at least from your perspective?
Fernando Nikolic 00:18:24
Yeah, obviously it, it’s complex, but if I were to say like one thing that kind of like try to encapsulate all of that is that sometimes it’s really easy to agree on the problem. But then you don’t necessarily agree on the solution, right? I’ve heard there’s so many one thing about like Bitcoin podcast, just the space in general. That sometimes some shows they. Bring in people that are like super bass. Like politically like their ideology is pretty aligned with a lot of like values that I think. At least personally. Bitcoin is also on the same spectrum politically, so we can kind of like the conversations are really good because we all intend to. We all identify the same problems, but then at the end of it they might say something like, well, the solution is Fiat money. Backed by gold. Not Bitcoin, right? You’re just like ah, man.
Stephan Livera 00:19:13
So close, right?
Fernando Nikolic 00:19:13
Exactly, so it’s not an exact science. I mean, people are convinced about stuff not because of 1 specific thing that they read. It’s just the accumulation of like, decades of learning. And you know. Reading stuff that creates your conviction right? And for anyone to come in and kind of like rock that and just, like, shatter your worldview. It’s going to take a lot. It’s not going to happen in one sit down. So, you know it’s I think that talks a little bit too wise you know places like Argentina I think Bitcoin should be bigger. At least to be honest with you. Thorium is huge in Argentina compared to Bitcoin. And I thought that was always a very special case because how much more obvious is the problem when it comes to hyperinflation in Argentina and how obvious shouldn’t the solution of Bitcoin be? But Ethereum for some reason is a more attractive solution to their problem because it’s about opportunity at the end of the day, it’s about making money. Quick like hyperinflationary like you see. Like all the way back to the YMR Republic, you get to a certain point where you become a degenerate gambler. And that’s kind of like the old like looking for those type of opportunities becomes the norm and that affects the culture. You know you can ask any Argentinian how like stereotypical Argentinian is It’s like we’re always looking for the next, the next hustle. And I think that is one of the reasons like stuff like Ethereum is so big because. It is considered like a. A huge hustle and you can. Do that, you know, through a laptop even better. So yeah, they can agree on the problem. They want to be desperate for a solution, but at the end, ultimately your personal traits, I would say decides what kind of decision you create, because I think to be honest with you, if you are a person of like morals, if you are a person that is proud but at the same time. Humble and willing to unlearn certain things. Well, there’s certain personality traits. I think you should have in order for me to be ready for Bitcoin, and you might from a intelligence. level understand the problem but like from the soul you might think of a quick solution and not really a solution that changes something that changes the culture that has deeper meaning which I think Bitcoin. Has compared to Ethereum at least.
Stephan Livera 00:21:35
Yeah, And So what we see sometimes is people and we’re seeing this even in the news now, right, both in the UK and in the US Nigel Farage got debunked from Coots Bank subsidiary of NatWest. And now I think he had some success with that because he managed to get the NatWest CEO to resign and apologize and the BBC had to. Apologize, right. But he’s sort of pushing the wrong angle in some ways because he’s also trying to say also we need to. It’s almost like we need a new law. You know, there’s kind of that mindset. It’s not. And even though he spoke at Bitcoin Amsterdam last year, right? And then in the US, we’re seeing the same thing, right? We’re seeing Doctor Merkler, right. So he was anti. The COVID regime, anti the jabs all this. Off and one of his businesses is getting banked and the personal, the CEO and the CFO and their family are getting banked. And so it’s the same kind of thing that, you know, people are sort of not obviously jumping to Bitcoin now. Yes, you know it’s going to be slow, but it sort of gives you that kind of frustration because you think this is such an obvious. Answer You could use this today. Why not?
Fernando Nikolic 00:22:41
Yeah, And as the media is another like, very curious case study to be honest and this is also by working in communications. I Look into that a lot and I have. A side project. That I called Bitcoin perception, which is doing exactly that, like I’m monitoring the Bitcoin coverage across the mainstream media. And I’ve been doing that for like two Or three weeks, to be honest, but. Already now it’s pretty evident. By looking at the numbers. There’s different factions within the media that are covering Bitcoin differently, and I think the relationship between that is pretty interesting because one on the on one side you have the writers, you have the editors, you. Have like the. Machine behind each outlet and they’re understanding of Bitcoin and how they conceive the message and their like agreed understanding of Bitcoin like they agree on what Bitcoin is and then that determines how they cover it for I don’t know how long, right, but the readership is also very interesting as well. People who still I read the Guardian. I don’t know why they. Still do that but are. People who still read certain media outlets because they are aligned with their rural view and other in other sectors as well, right? And it’s very interesting because you have and it’s kind of sad as well because you know, it’s pretty obvious that nowadays outlets, a media outlet as an entity. It’s not. It’s no longer like a watchdog. Trying to like scrutinize. The things that happens from a government side, it’s it has become like a mouthpiece of some political dogma or ideology that they subscribe to some political allegiances, that they forge. And then that’s the relationship for all eternity, right? But it’s interesting to see how they understand Bitcoin because on the right side. Like the right leaning media like Fox and stuff like that, they tend to understand Bitcoin in a very specific way. They talk mostly about Bitcoin mining and like the relationship of mining with like balancing the energy grid. as an industry like an energy sector industry that can provide jobs and stuff, very blue collar, a way of understanding it. Right. And they are kind of like sticking to. That message and I’m. Thinking, hey, it’s a very small fraction of what Bitcoin truth is, but it is true, right? And I think it’s Ok. That they keep. Talking about Bitcoin in the sense, and that their readership, through reading them, establishes that type of understanding and I’m cool if they stay there, they don’t need to necessarily know about lightning network. They can just have that understanding and see value in Bitcoin net and just stay there for the rest of the life. Hey, that is part of adoption. That’s just the cohort that is a little variable in the COG. That drives global adoption in general. In the middle you have the Bloombergs, the Financial Times, the you know the more like finance outlets and they see Bitcoin from an. Investor perspective, it’s all about the investment thesis. They talk about Bitcoin as if it’s like a tech stock and I know a lot of Bitcoiners have a problem with that too. But it’s actually Ok. I let them understand Bitcoin in that way. It’s an entry. It’s a first touch point. Maybe they will develop a further understanding based on that. Maybe not. Maybe they just stay there and treat it as a stock as a speculative asset. But that’s fine too. It’s 1 aspect of adoption. But then you have the left-leaning media. Which is just the. They’re just hating on Bitcoin, right? Every single thing, any positive news from El Salvador, they find a way to put a negative spin on it. They talk about Bitcoin together with like side by side with scams, terrorism and all that. And that’s just what they’re going to do. And my point is, there’s no need to convince them. Like, I don’t want Blockstream necessarily. To fight. To have a op-ed on the Guardian or have Adam back be interviewed by them because most likely they will continue to find that negative spin on it and will probably not serve us right, or Bitcoin in general, but also the audience who are reading the Guardian. I don’t wanna spend time trying to convince them. It’s Ok. Bitcoin is not for. Everyone they I rather try. To you know, the ones who have a, you know, very. Small understanding of it, whether. It is the Bloomberg readers or the Fox readers at least they have a foot in the door. And you can build on that. And I think that’s way better. That’s just time spent, way better than trying to convince the blue haired. Ecosocialist about the virtues of Bitcoin, which I’m sure there are arguments for that too, right? But let’s just spend our time wisely. Like, let’s not waste people’s time. It’s about respect, to be honest. You want to respect people’s time. And your own time as well.
Stephan Livera 00:27:19
Yeah, and so while that may be triggering to, let’s say, people out there who wanna focus on the progressive case for Bitcoin, and I know there’s a guy who wrote a book for that and there’s a I think there’s a podcast for that and, you know, and fine for people who are progressives. Yeah, they can have their material and whatever that case is, I think for me personally and probably for you as well, I’m just not focused on that, right I’m just more focused on where can I actually. Where can I win? Where can I help somebody, you know, where can I help somebody improve their understanding of why fear money is a scam basically, and why Bitcoin is the answer, right? Where can I focus on? That I think this does align a little bit well, it seems to align very closely in some ways with the idea of the 10 million intransigent Bitcoiners, right? So this is something Corey has written about for Swan. It’s like this idea that if we built up enough of a base of, you know, hardcore Bitcoiners or people who would go to go to bat for Bitcoin and try to spread the message. Then it just becomes so much harder to stop and so I think that was part of the case with how Swan, like part of the vision of the company in some ways. But part of it of course, is just providing services for Bitcoins so they can buy Bitcoin and stack. And Hoddle, of course. But yeah, it does force us to focus on who can we win. And I think one way that I’m seeing it and part of this, you know, there are people have been writing about similar ideas. I know even Chris, you might have seen Jesse Myers, Chris BTC wrote this article why the Yuppie Elite dismissed Bitcoin. And in many cases, it’s because. They’re from a belief. System that won’t allow them to step out of their tribe, right? They want to stay within that tribe, and they’re not very open minded. They just wanna. They might be intelligent. Many of them are intelligent, but they’re still unwilling to step out and understand why Bitcoin is a good thing. And so maybe it’s a similar thing to that. What do? You think?
Fernando Nikolic 00:29:09
Oh man, I mean I think that it is about shattering people’s worldview, right? Like part of understanding, they come to me, at least my personal opinion. On it is like you need to humble yourself, praise, silly down, and be open to change your mind about things that you have perceived as universal truths. Stuff that they taught you at school, stuff that they. Have taught you from? You know your family members. You know, a lot of these things you need to. Kind of like. Uproot and drastically change your mind. Or how you see it? And once you do it, you can’t Unsee it. You see the world through a different lens. I think at least me, and I think a lot of other Bitcoins can probably. Identify with that type of. Like radical change in your in your. Persona you know, before and after Bitcoin. But what I’m trying to say is that. A lot of people, first of all, don’t have those personality traits like I said prior, you need to be like you need to be a humble person. You need to. Be a person that appreciates building and not destroying. You need to be. You need to have. These traits already in your system from your life. Before you even hear about Bitcoin, the very first time, but then also apart from that, from like more psychological traits, I think they’re just like straight up incentives, right? Like there are people who their whole career is based on never understanding Bitcoin and never changing. That’s going to continue until that incentive no longer. Whether that is an industry dying depress dying, traditional banking dying, I don’t know what that is. To be honest, but. Whether they die or not, they would probably like change like the music industry was forced to change when MP3 and the Internet started, like distributing music and torrents came alive. You know they will be forced to change or adapt to that. But it’s like some people are also they have some costs like they have based their whole life on thinking about life in a certain way. Think people you know the world is chaotic. Place so much going on. If you actually had the ability to know everything that was happening at once. You will go mad. Right. So, in our life. As humans, we’re just trying to create this lens. This filter of how we view the world and we’re trying to understand everything that happens every day through that lens. So, a lot of people aren’t willing to change that lens a lot. They’re comfortable understanding how the way they have always. Good life. And they’re just, like, uncomfortable changing that drastically. You can call it cognitive dissonance or whatever, but that’s a fact, right? So I’m thinking, you know, try to find the people who are willing to change that worldview to change that filter, to take out. It’s like old school analogy camera photography like you had to take out. A filter and then add a new one in. Doesn’t take a different picture. It’s kind of like that. Just mentally and not a lot. Not a lot of people are willing or able to do that. That’s why Bitcoin is not for everyone.
Stephan Livera 00:31:59
Yeah, and so then I have my own ideas on this as well, but I’m curious to hear your view if the idea is Bitcoin is not for everybody and you know you can’t evangelize this to everybody, what then is the role of Bitcoin evangelists, right, because I think. Certainly, many of us were impacted or influenced by other evangelists, like obviously early evangelist people like Andreas Antonopoulos or others out there, right? If they didn’t do what they did, maybe that we might not be here, or maybe some of us might not be here. So then in this context, what’s the role for evangelists? If there is one.
Fernando Nikolic 00:34:20
Yeah, super interesting. I think that has a lot to do with like which stage in the adoption cycle we’re in, because I think in the beginning, like you go back to 2013 right? I was not really. Like the user experience of Bitcoin. Was very bad at that time and you needed people like Antonopoulos to come, like conceptually talk about Bitcoin in different ways and presented to you in certain ways that was easy to understand and at least start there and then go. And choose your rabbit holes. And go as deep as. You want, right? And I think for Period, especially in the beginning and maybe. 2017 I would say. Evangelist like that was needed because they kind of like, you know, if you’re not that technically inclined, you need somebody to be able to translate the technical things about Bitcoin and put into a perspective of like, what’s a real use case in the world. What does this mean for the world? I think Antonopoulos is just a he’s so good. At that. But I think now. In 2023, we’re like 14 years in, right. I think now it’s kind of like where? We maybe need. To stop raising awareness and just like create products and you know, think about the communication, think about target audience. Instead of an ocean, think about the swimming pool as a reference to Seth Godin, which is a marketing guy that I like, that I that I put in the opinion piece, identify the swimming pools. Don’t focus on the ocean and then these little swimming pools are people that you bring in through a great experience, whether it is through an app, platform or service, whatever. It’s not necessarily because of the concept of Bitcoin, but it’s more of a thing that you employ to do what you want to do. So if you’re somebody in Tanzania. And you just want to set up a, a business local business and you don’t have the means to KYC yourself for some reason. You just don’t wanna. You can’t create it. You don’t have the means to have a. Bank account. Yeah, you would. You need a real. Good Lightning product to be able that enables you to do what you want to do and if you’re able to do it, that person’s going to love Bitcoin. For the transformation in his life, not because Bitcoin is awesome and his cypher punk and Adam back is a cool guy. No, because of the actual day-to-day. The actual change that happens and in the opinion piece that I wrote for Bitcoin magazine I mentioned Herman Vivier. Which is a someone I consider a friend, but just somebody that I really admire. He understood. Like there’s a very specific thing in this Township in South Africa, they have a real need. He saw that because he knows the pain, the struggles, their desire, their wishes, their dreams, and then he could translate how Bitcoin can have a space for them. To reach their goals or whatever, and that leads them to be excited about, like, Ok, you’re telling me that if I know if I study Bitcoin. Or and I use the wallet I can actually get paid for a graphic design job and somebody in Ireland. To do. Hell yeah, sign me up. That’s the that’s where we are right now. And that’s where I think like the role of the evangelist should take. No, don’t. No more think Boy stuff no more like conceptual stuff. Just like percent of value. Do your research on the people that you’re presenting this value to and get your feedback and start like creating those ecosystems that might be insignificant when you put it in an isolated view like, Ok, a Township. In South Africa, who cares, right? But the more of them that appears, that’s where the like the cultural change happens and the culture happens not because of any ideology or any Bitcoin maxi identity that you put to your person. it’s awesome because you’ve used it and it works and it’s a delightful experience and you know. That changes the culture more. So I think that’s kind of where I wanna see evangelism and just orange peeling, I guess in general go in the you know where we are entering in the adoption cycle.
Stephan Livera 00:38:21
Yeah, so I think there’s certainly aspects. I agree there, like the orange peeling like even Sometimes, like even the use of the term orange peeling, I get a little uneasy about the way people use that because it’s sort of seen like a you’re assuming you just know better than that other person, right? And like and I think maybe we have to, like you were saying maybe we have to have a little bit of humility and at least make it more targeted and meet that person where they are. That right, even if they are wrong, right? Like even if they are wrong, they don’t understand why I feel is a scam. Why Bitcoin is better? Or Bitcoin is the? Answer I think. There’s a certain level of it’s an ongoing process, right? It’s not that you know, for example, if you just. Tip an Uber driver one time with a custodial wallet. Have you like? Have you really? You know, orange pill, bad person, right? Like I think at best you might have them using Bitcoin in a custodial in an IOU way. Now of course we want not your keys, not your coins. We want people to use non custodial wherever possible, but it just it. There’s an ongoing process that’s required for someone to really. Actually come down the rabbit hole per se. Don’t you think you need an ongoing relationship, right?
Fernando Nikolic 00:39:26
Exactly, and there’s a kind of there’s a lot of these things. What you just said, you just need to connect. You need to. Be able to be at the right. Time at the. Right place essentially. So maybe being seated in the back of an Uber. When you’re driving. Back and forth from a Bitcoin conference and. Trying to you know. Orange pill or whatever the driver makes sense like I remember like I was in BTC Prague and. One time, one of the drivers was a Ukrainian dude and he was. You were just telling me, like, hey, you. Know what’s the local currency and the? Czech Republic. The corona, I think, yeah.
Stephan Livera 00:40:07
Czech crown Is it?
Fernando Nikolic 00:40:09
Yeah, like the Czech crown. So he was saying, like, hey, the Czech crown is going to be obsolete soon. Like what? Why is that? oh no, the EU just passed the passed the law and you know they’re gonna introduce euro soon. I can’t remember exactly when, but it’s probably gonna happen in a couple of years. Yeah, I was like, damn, that sucks. What do you think that is? And then that’s a that’s an example of like, the type of questions you should ask people, right? Like, you shouldn’t necessarily. Say at that point Yo! The Bitcoin is cool because that is impossible. The cool thing is engaged in the convoy and like I said to the drivers like why do you think that is and basically, he could have said. I don’t know, no idea. And that would tell me like, Ok. He’s not really interested in. But his answer told me like because he because he said oh, yeah, you know these bird crates, they love central power and they and they want to like regulate everything. And they want to just extend their control over sovereign states within the EU and stuff like that. I’m like, Ok, this guy is based, this guy is ready for Bitcoin, right? So that led me to. To put it in perspective, how Bitcoin works in this very specific scenario that he was talking about. And then he that kind of like triggered his interest and his brain. And he started thinking, and he asked me a Lot of cool questions. That was. Like, Ok, this guy is interested for real. And it’s not about like, I don’t know, some greedy stuff like how to get rich fast. It was like. How is the society going to change? Each in a system in a Bitcoin. Standard, for example. And then obviously we started talking about like the parallel systems and stuff like that with Czechoslovakia during the Soviet Union, it was like, Ok, there’s so much like based conversations that was like, that’s nice. That’s like, Ok, one successful orange pill. He might not do anything. After that, Uber. He might never like, get a wallet or get Bitcoin, but at least that’s a guy who’s ready, and hopefully he on his own will. Kind of like, you know, try. To try to learn a little bit more. There is a. Book that I like called the diffusion of innovations. I can’t remember where. That book is from but. It’s called it’s by a guy called Everett Rogers and I think it’s from the 60s or something. It’s pretty, pretty old, but it said. One of the quotes. Just got to get my.
Fernando Nikolic 00:42:37
Notes here because it’s 4. Thoughts that I really want to talk about. The first one being. Diffusion is the process by which an innovation is communicated through certain channels over time among members of the social system. So like that sentence, kind of like explains like you need to do it over time. So like repetition, propagandizing action maybe is like one element. You should just keep repeating a message. Until it’s fix. You gotta communicate through certain channels, so you got to be very. You know, you got to be on. Top of your game. You know exactly. No, is it . It through podcast is it? Through TV, what is it through? And then it is among members of a social system. So there’s a lot of, it’s a, it’s a group that aligns on world views essentially, and you need to be able to know what those worldviews are in order for the diffusion of an innovation to be accepted. Because if you don’t have these variables in place. An innovation or like a new invention. You’re just going. To have, like the knee jerk reaction, is to reject new things, right, like. People were very comfortable riding horses and when the car got introduced, a lot of people didn’t like it. A lot of people didn’t like when electricity was a thing. There was like campaigns like a lot of, like, caricatures being drawn against electricity, right? So you will have this, like Luddite reaction to just things being new because you’re already. Comfortable with your worldview. So it’s all of this is. What I’m trying to say right like that’s. The crux of the of the whole thing. And just like be mindful of these things if you. Are serious about, you know, getting people an onboard. People to Bitcoin.
Stephan Livera 00:44:24
Yeah, right. And I think as you said like you need you. Need it’s repetition it’s, you know, getting the right messaging. It’s a combination of these factors that really can bring someone in and you know, here’s the other thing I. Think a lot of people. Don’t change their mind from having an argument about things. It’s more like people change because they see someone else who they want to copy, and so maybe there’s and there’s people making this kind of argument also, right. You’re seeing people saying this on social media. They’re saying things like I don’t bother trying to convince people about Bitcoin. I just let them come to me. Right. And if you are a good example. If you are a role model, if you have success in something and then other people come to you and they’re asking oh hey, how did you do that? I want to be like you. That’s then the moment that you can explain. Oh hey. Well I use Bitcoin and etcetera. So maybe that’s also part of it that you won’t convince people. In an. Upfront discussion or argument per say, but you have to just be available and then they. Will come to you.
Fernando Nikolic 00:45:29
Totally, And that’s just another cool thing. Like, let’s play that scenario out. Right. Like, imagine you have somebody come to you. I heard about Bitcoin. And then they say, well, I heard it through, I don’t know, Stephan Livera show or I heard it through TFC or whatever you. As a bitcoiner who know. Do you think? Ok, cool. That’s a good starting point, this guy. Is like in it and. It’s open, but if the same guy came to you and said I want to know all about Bitcoin. I heard from bit boy, I heard it from. I heard from bitcoin.com You’re gonna be like, ah, damn. Like, where? That’s a tough one. That’s an uphill battle. So it’s it definitely plays a part like where people just consume content and it’s kind of like it is our, it is our duty to just always be upfront with the truth and just like let people. Explore and discover that. On their own. But when that when that interaction happens, that one-on-one where you’re actually sitting down with people asking questions, yeah, that be mindful about who you’re talking to and keep that in mind. Like the same humility that you had that led you to understand Bitcoin, you. Need to show that. Humility to the next person that you’re trying to. Bring over.
Stephan Livera 00:46:42
Yeah. one other topic that I want to get into because I think this is something people are talking about stable coins right now. I’m not a, you know, I don’t promote stable coins. I promote Bitcoin, of course. But this is, it seems to be a common line and I call this stable coin hand ringing right now. The way I’m seeing it is like there are people saying, oh, look, there are people using stable coins with these old coin that are travelling across alt coin chains person. Even though the stable coin is centralized. Fine, but I think one thing to understand is that the market for stable coin users is different from the market. For Bitcoin users and maybe we don’t need to be so worried about that because they’re different markets per say. Now of course I want more and more people to use Bitcoin. But the fact that somebody wants a U.S. dollar exposure, maybe that was not somebody who I could have converted, right like. And I’m curious what you have, what perspective you have. Obviously as an Argentinian, I’m sure you know lots of Argentinian people are using stable coins and of course I’m sure you’d love that they if they were to use, you know, liquid tether on liquid instead. But ultimately, the market for stable coins is different from the market for Bitcoin, isn’t it?
Fernando Nikolic 00:47:47
Yeah, and you know, like other people say, like, Ok, stable coins are actually you know detrimental to adoption because they choose stable coin and they just stay in that ecosystem and they just like they’re averse to Bitcoin. So that that adoption either never takes place or just takes place way later when. They could have done it. Reverse and started. That I agree with that. But then that’s a very theoretical way of looking at it, like on paper, that is true. But you gotta that. Those are. That’s a prime example. People like not really caring about these people because obviously these people have a need that is urgent, that needs a real fix and. You know. I can speak for Argentina US dollar is the standard. It’s like the highest, like, that’s the gold standard in a way, right. If you want to transact like real, like, I don’t know if you wanna. You know, buy property or whatever. It is all denominated in dollars like real transactions is dollars the daily day-to-day. Yeah, go ahead and you know, buy your buy your milk with pesos. You don’t you don’t want to spend your dollar to on milk when you have a way lesser super inflationary currency that you just got to get rid of. Anyway, so that is a real reflection of their reality. So obviously their choice is the way they behave is gonna be based on that, not from a developer on Twitter from Spain who think. No, You should go there the. Bitcoin directly? I mean, they’re. Right. But so are the Argentinians choosing Terra? So Bitcoin another thing is that, you know, Bitcoin should also be Ok in terms of its volatility because hey man, your local currency is devaluing like crazy and you’re seeing way crazier swings, volatility wise. So the volatility of Bitcoin shouldn’t be a problem neither. But it’s just a cultural. Thing of like the dollar being that thing. And then you take it to the political context where you have capital. Trolls, and they can’t. It’s got like a prohibition law, right? Like you’re not allowed to. Exchange more than I think it’s 150. Dollars a month. That is like a Streisand effect. Like people just want more than 150 If that is the law. Right. So, they would just get, they would try to like find ways of circumventing that limit and hey. Stable coins is like a perfect, perfect platform for doing sad circumvention. You can go to these caves where just like literally a 16-year-old laptop that just is super tech savvy and knows about, you know Binance and how all these things work. And they hey, they offer a service to their community. That’s it. It works. People get what they want, and that’s what matters.
Fernando Nikolic 00:50:27
Now, if the dollar is going to zero, which might happen or maybe not. Oh yeah, Bitcoin definitely becomes the replacement that that become makes Bitcoin The standard but right now. At this very moment, it’s not so. We just got to be. Very aware of that reality and not like going to these like childlike knee jerk, reactions where people like. They rage. They rage on Twitter, thinking. No, the Argentinians. Are doing it wrong? Or they did they? They don’t understand. They’re stupid. It’s not. They’re actually very smart. And the same. Thing can be said about self-custody as well. I think self-custody, you know, having Bitcoin and being in control of your keys. That is the gold standard that is ultimately like the gold. But I think there’s a. Lot of people who are not. Willing to start there. It’s a it’s the end goal, so you need to go through steps to be not only, you know, secure about what you’re doing, like knowing what you’re doing is obviously important, but you need to also see why you should do it. You see the value and controlling your own keys, and that’s not necessarily something that people learn on the first day when they understand Bitcoin. So it’s a gradual process and I think. Again, products and services that takes care of. You in those. Like prior steps to ending in self-custody. Think that is important too? Because you know, in Latin America, for example, people use smartphones, right? Like a lot of people, they have kind of, like, hopped over, they didn’t have Internet like landlines or laptops or whatever. They just jump straight to the smartphones and, you know, 4G the thing. Is like these smartphones. Factory fresh iPhones, right? Like they are like smartphones that are passed on to others. It’s like 4 or five people, that same smartphone that they use today has gone through four or five different pair of hands and God knows what kind of apps they have installed, what kind of like, you know, they’re extremely hot phones. And there’s really no real service. Out there, that really takes care of those people while they. They are like. Getting acquainted with Bitcoin, getting comfortable with Bitcoin and we need to. We need that to exist for them to be cool and then take their time to study Bitcoin and eventually get to like holy, you know what, keeping my Bitcoin on the phone, it’s not a good idea. Let me let. Me graduate to. A hardware wall. It’s like American hotel. And the self cost is like learning to drive a car. You don’t start at the highway, you start at the parking lot. You gradually get there and again us. Saying like talking about people who are not doing self-custody. That is wrong. Like we need to have empathy and understand that there are steps to getting there and we need to. Be good at like. Providing good products, good services, good experiences altogether for people to actually get there eventually. So well, I don’t know if I this. Was maybe a. Rant I don’t know.
Stephan Livera 00:53:19
Yeah, Ok. But let’s get to the question of, I guess. For people who aren’t able. To get to the Bitcoin standard of using Bitcoin and self-custody, I guess there’s an element of pragmatism there, because for some of these people they can’t earn directly in Bitcoin. Or maybe they are unwilling to because they haven’t, because the culture doesn’t kind of allow them to yet. So maybe there’s some elements of trying to. Shift the culture over time, not. Yes, it’s gonna happen tomorrow. But if we slowly shift the culture where it’s normalized that you just earn in Bitcoin and spend in bits. And maybe there’s something there that helps. Ease the you know, ease the pathway for more people to actually become Bitcoiners.
Fernando Nikolic 00:54:02
No, totally. But like me and you, we were kind of like, I don’t think we fall in the spend and replace camp. I think we’re kind of like good, we’re just saving and huddling and I think that’s an important use case. And to be honest, self-custody is the. Thing, if you’re, if you’re doing that right. So, I think yeah you know creating circular economies is cool. Getting paid in Bitcoin spending and replacing is cool, but it’s still to this day not something I would tell somebody to do to be honest, because there’s so many points of failure and kind of like self-custody is a clean thing. Just like get Bitcoin, whatever you get it from, put it into this. Control your own keys and just stack. Keep stacking. Keep stacking. It’s like a very EC frame. It’s a very easy mental model for people that are new, but it’s still hard. It’s still like you can’t really. Underestimate how a total new look at these things. Yeah, people say, yeah, it’s 12 words. Write it down on paper. But it’s more than that. You need to understand. Like what that represents, what that means. It’s not just I can. I can write 12 Words in the paper, right now doesn’t mean. if it’s not in the proper context. So yeah. What I’m trying to say is there’s a bunch of different use cases, a lot of people derive value from Bitcoin at this point because Bitcoin is. There’s so many different products and services right now than like 10 years back. I think it’s great, but still the point is saying you need. To just figure out what are people desire, what they really want and just talk about Bitcoin in that context for them.
Stephan Livera 00:55:37
Yeah, and so when it comes to different generations as well, that can mean appealing to them in different ways. So for example. I think it’s a common thing nowadays that Gen. Z have very low patience and so they need extremely simple they need the text and they need like these kind of video. You know they need it in a different style than what the let’s say, the Gen. X and the boomers need, and maybe the boomers need a more tailored message. That’s kind of more. Depends on server. This because maybe they’re not as tech savvy. I guess part of it is tailoring your message like you said, based on who, what, what, that person, who that person is, what they are trying to do, but then also being pragmatic about what’s the first step for this person that’s realistic, that they will actually take, because I think that’s the other angle. Because idealism and perfectionism can get in the way of actually making progress for some of these people. And so I think there are sometimes where a narrative is popular on social media, let’s say on in Bitcoin, Twitter or. Nostra, but maybe that’s not the actual narrative that convinces people and gets them started on the journey, even if it’s not perfect.
Fernando Nikolic 00:56:47
Yeah, and it’s not a perfect science neither, I think obviously everybody speaks about Bitcoin the way they feel comfortable about based on their own convictions and stuff like that. And I think that’s why I guess just to have a controversial take like that’s why I’m very bearish on individual Bitcoiners doing like carrying adoption on their shoulders. Because I think. Just you know, you talk about. What you like? You what? What you’re interested in the thing that you deem important and you? Just talk about. It just in general to whoever, right. Like, but I think that is the reason why so many people have given up on orange Pilling normies because they keep getting rejected. But honestly, like it’s also understandable. Like you can’t really. Pretend to like. Ask all these like preliminary questions trying to dig. Into their psyche. To get, you know, like the example of. The of the Uber driver and Czech Republic. That I did not everyone is doing that. You just talk about Bitcoin because you like it and your own reasons why I like it. And then whoever is. On the other receiving end, maybe they’ll connect to. That, or maybe they just think you’re crazy. Whatever I think though, that won’t help adoption in the future and I think totally like raising awareness or spreading the word. It’s just. We’re at, we’re. At a point that that really has like minimal impact and like I really rely on our industry to just cut through that noise with excellent products and services and also the competition in between Bitcoin companies, always trying to get more market share and just by virtue of that making their products easier. More accessible, more sexy, whatever it is. Then through that. Is where we’re gonna take it to. The next level, I believe.
Stephan Livera 00:58:27
Yeah. Gotcha. And before we let you go, I know obviously you’re a block stream. I’ve seen some stuff about the new green coming out. So and while we were talking about it, I guess it came to my mind because from what I’ve seen of the teaser images, I think BTC sessions might have shared one. I saw a few images going around. The idea is that you’ll have blocks from green with on chain Bitcoin light. Thing and liquid all-in-one. So, can you just explain a little bit? Maybe tease a little bit of what you’re willing to share, what that’s gonna look like for people who are curious?
Fernando Nikolic 00:58:57
Yeah, I think a lot of things that has recently been done on green has been extremely exciting because like got the UX we unified a lot of things. So, you can basically have with the same key pair you can have three wallets like. A liquid wall. A lightning wallet and an on-chain wallet, and that’s extremely good user experience for people who are, you know, you know, trying out green. As the very. First, Bitcoin. Well that I think the most important thing that I also like the real Bitcoiners will know, but it’s going to be like a feature that a lot of people aren’t really aware. Of is the fact that. Lightning, the Lightning feature on Green, is powered by green light, right? So it’s actually a lightning wallet where you hold your own keys. And I think if you take a look around and you take a look at the Lightning wallets has gotten more traction. They’re all custodial for the most part, and I think that is something that needs to be changed, but it doesn’t necessarily needs to be changed in the way like, oh, you need to learn how to run a node, you need to connect your wallet to your node. And all of that stuff. I think again product or service like green light is gonna come to market and I think it’s gonna give a lot. Of people who are not. Really interested or just. For whatever reason, don’t want to or can’t. You know, manage their own lightning note can still benefit from, you know, a Lightning experience that is, you know, secure. I saw Ben The Carman had a tweet about saps on Noster being also, you know, basically custodial wallets. You know, these things need to change. And obviously, people choose those upper walls because of the use of your. But I think now with the introduction of lightning on, green is like one step towards that direction of like having lightning for everyone become an experience where your funds is actually in your control. So, I’m super stoked about that, and I think in BTC Amsterdam we will be ready with some nice announcements.
Stephan Livera 01:00:57
Fantastic. You know that’s. Sounds good. And yeah, as you said, it’s good to see more products and services that are advancing over time and even Lightning in general is improving a lot over time. I think probably one of the big one is Phoenix, like being a big shift with Splicing and I think that’s really going to change the game in terms of lightning user experience, but really, truly merging on chain and off chain. And hopefully with green it’ll be a slick. It’s there and I guess one other area just with green. The idea is with green you could also pair it with your jade, right? So how would that work then in the on-chain wallet? Or can you? Could you still have Jade paired with your on chain but do like lightning? That’s like on the phone or how would that look?
Fernando Nikolic 01:01:42
Yeah, I mean, I’m trying to not get into two technical terms here, but what I can say is that you will soon be able to pair green with jade and perform swaps. Within Jade and that is a feature that I think a lot of people are going to love. I really can’t wait to announce that but it’s yeah, coming soon TM.
Stephan Livera 01:02:07
Ok, cool. Yeah, well, that’s great. Ok, so I guess, yeah. Let’s wrap it up then. So basically, we’ve been talking about this idea that Bitcoin is not for everybody. And I guess that that means we have to focus on who is going to get it. First, who’s the? You know if, let’s say 80% of people today probably are not really gonna really resonate with Bitcoin. Maybe something more like 10 or 15%, maybe 20% on the upside, who can get Bitcoin? So how do we how do we get to them? So do you have any closing thoughts for people?
Fernando Nikolic 01:02:37
Just find your people. Bitcoin is amazing. Everybody who is in this space, whether they’re like working in Bitcoin or just like following Bitcoin or just hanging out on Twitter or Noster, they know that community aspect of Bitcoin is amazing. The people that you meet literally changes your life. But we have gotten to. A point where we’re growing. So you’re going to meet a lot of people that don’t necessarily fall into your own beliefs, and that is fine. There’s still a use case for Bitcoin for those people, but if you don’t. Want to waste your time or their time? Just find your own people and that’s enough. And then you know to collectively as individuals. Orange Pilling people that we actually make an intentional attempt to actually find and guide that I think adoption. For the future is going to be meaningful. If not, don’t waste your time. Cool, let the amazing Bitcoin companies that are working on creating products and services for the rest of the world. Let them figure out like target audience, cohort, messaging, positioning, all of the. If that is too much for you, but if not, just chill and enjoy life and just be Ok with the fact that Bitcoin is not for everyone, it is for anyone that are willing to listen and learn, but you gotta you gotta connect on other things that is not necessarily only Bitcoin, it goes deeper. Than that, but. Yeah, I really appreciate the opportunity. And I this is the thing. That a lot of. Ideas that I’ve been thinking about that eventually led to me writing it down on Bitcoin magazine but are truly appreciate the time that you’ve given me to just discuss and. I’d love to hear your thoughts and your. Feedback on that as. Well, so thank you.
Stephan Livera 01:04:19
Yeah, great. Well, Fernando I’ll put the links in the show notes and thanks for joining me.
Fernando Nikolic 01:04:24
Cool, man. See you around.
Stephan Livera 01:04:27
Show notes are available at stephanlivera.com Make sure to subscribe and hit like if you enjoyed the show. I’ll see you in the Citadels.