Andrew Henderson, Founder of Nomad Capitalist rejoins me on the show to talk:

  • Home country bias
  • Looking beyond headlines 
  • Evolution in citizenship
  • Global minimum tax and ‘the international community’
  • CBDC
  • Nomad Capitalist Live



Stephan Livera links:

Podcast Transcripts:     

Stephan Livera 00:03:03  

Andew, it’s been a while since we spoke, Welcome back. 

Andrew Henderson 00:03:05  

Thank you, Good to be with you. 

Stephan Livera 00:03:07  

So, lots of things going on. In some ways, you could say that you know the walls are closing in, there’s global minimum tax is it over for Nomad Capitalism, you know? But I’m sure there are opportunities out there. And I thought it would be great to just start with one common area of focus. I see, so a lot of people have this conception that where they were born or where they live is the best place, right? Best hospitals, best schools, best roads, best whatever. But they can’t all be correct. Now you have a lot of experience that you’ve been running Nomad Capitalist now for over 10 years, do you have any insight into why that is? 

Andrew Henderson 00:03:44  

I imagine the same reason that people I went to school with support the Cleveland Browns, who went on 16 one year, they won zero and people still I still go on Facebook once in a blue moon and I see people tailgating outside the Browns game. I mean, they’re perennial losers and yet. Because you’re born in or near Cleveland, that’s your team. You know, we always kind of complain. And my father was like, oh, I don’t like these people who are Yankees fans in baseball like oh, it’s easy to support the winner. Back in the 90s, the Yankees, with the winners, got I don’t follow it anymore. But he’s like, I don’t like these people who they just find the Winner It’s like Wait a second, why not? But because you’re born in one place, you should support a loser. I just don’t believe that’s true. 

Stephan Livera 00:04:30  

I think that’s a great, I think that’s a really succinct way to put it. It’s find the winner. And to some extent, there are, you know, it’s constantly shifting, right? So maybe it’s like the winner is, you know and that’s just like with sports teams just like it is potentially with countries and jurisdictions, isn’t it? 

Andrew Henderson 00:04:46  

Well, do you want to know what we hear a lot in the comments and from clients? We hear a lot of people who came from, let’s say, Eastern European countries That seems to be the big one with a left some a little bit older. Maybe they left 30 years ago, 20 years ago, even 10 years ago. And they say, you know, this is kind of becoming what we left or what my parents left in. Let’s say, the United States. I’m not the only one saying that you watch some of these prognosticators on TV. They have the same conversations anecdotally with their taxi drivers. What have you? I came from Hungary. I came from Romania. I came from Bulgaria. I came from Russia. I came from Ukraine. We’ve had a number of folks who are like, hey, we’re getting our citizenship in Canada, whatever. But this is nothing like what we expected. It to be. And so, I think that the bias you mentioned, the global minimum tax right now, I mean if you are in the boat that most of us are in, if you’re not making you know hundreds of millions of dollars a year, that’s not really going to affect you. I mean, you saw places like the UAE where they introduced a corporate tax for mainland companies. If you, you know, fill out the forms correctly, you can be in the free zones and not pay tax. I mean, places like Hong Kong still have, you know, 22 tiered regimes for people who aren’t there. So, I think that people look at the headlines, Caribbean citizenship is dead, was a recent headline. If you’re a Westerner, it makes to me, And rather nominal difference. Some of the changes there, global minimum tax doesn’t really affect you. They see. Oh, Americans are taxed no matter where they live. Yes, but you’ve got exclusions and exemptions, and if you’re a business owner, you can defer a lot of that tax and push it away. And So, what I’ve been focused on recently is. Take the Russian Ukraine war as a proxy. I don’t want talk about the war itself. I want to talk about you know countries that have a certain kind of view. 15 as in about 15%, 1 in 7 people in the world live in a country that’s for Ukraine. Now you can like Ukraine and that’s great. And I’m not saying I don’t helps a lot of Ukrainians. At the beginning, with the place to stay. But in most parts of the world, they either don’t care or they disagree with you, and those are the countries that nobody in the West, the people that watch me and that watch you are paying attention to. In fact, they scoff at it. Indonesia it’s the fourth largest population in the world. It’s growing, by the way. Forget the fact that is an American. They don’t want your business at Singaporean banks anymore, by and large. They will take an Indonesians business from the regional play, and because it comes with far less baggage, they come with far less baggage than, let’s say, an American does, or even a British person now does. So, who’s really the one who’s free, who’s really the one who has options? Their passport may not be as good as yours, but there’s plenty of emerging wealthy people in the country like Indonesia. And I’m not saying that’s the place to go. But I’m saying it’s going to be countries like that that you’re not even thinking about. And I think it’s very easy to dismiss. There’s nowhere to go in the world because I looked up North and Canada is even worse than we are. We’re not talking about Canada, Steph. That’s not the place you’re going. 

Stephan Livera 00:07:48  

Sorry, Andrew, I think we just lost you for a second there. But as you said. I think some people are just looking not very far afield, right? They’re just looking at their immediate Neighbour, right? If I’m an Australian, oh, Look at New Zealand. If I’m an American. Look at Canada like it’s not. You know, or for an American, they may be looking internally within the different States of America, but not externally, right. I think that’s a common one as well. 

Andrew Henderson 00:08:10  

Yeah, I mean how much news do you hear about Dubai? For example, if you’re watching our stuff, maybe you start to see it. I think you’re probably seeing too much in the industry from people over hyping Dubai. Not a bad place to go, but recently talk to a guy he’s going to double his taxes moving to Dubai. Because he didn’t realize is the kind of income he has relies on tax treaties to reduce it. The place the income comes from. There’s no tax treaty, so, you know, maybe some places are getting overhyped. But how much news do you see in just the mainstream media, which influences all of us, even if we think it doesn’t, about the countries that maybe we’re talking about? I’m having an event coming up in Malaysia. Nobody really knows much of anything in Malay about Malaysia, I spend part of my life there. I can tell you in terms of soft freedom, it’s one of the best they leave me alone. Some of the nicest people you’ll ever meet. They opened up during the pandemic in the early days before Florida did. Now Florida was more open in 2021, but just in an immediate if you wanted to get out, you could have gotten out of Malaysia sooner than you could have gotten out of Florida. And yeah, people are focused on Florida. Someone said yesterday. Oh I don’t need this snow made countless stuff. I live in Florida, there’s no income tax. I said believe me. There’s an income tax in Florida. You just don’t pay it to Florida, and people have kind of, you know, that’s the narrative, right to use a Ron deSantis word. That’s the narrative. If is, oh, there’s no income tax. Yeah, except that 37% you send to Joe Biden and they wanna raise it. And by the way, forget income tax they have wanted for over a decade and they’re gaining momentum. If you’re an American and they wanna take the cap off of Social Security, I would have a year or two ago, if I were living in the US under this, you know if. There are no cap. I’d have like a 7 figure, Social Security, tax bill. And do you think I’m gonna get any more than my 2000 dollars month? No, because even the Republicans Christie, for example, is saying now why should Mark Zuckerberg get Social Security? So, the Democrats are saying Mark Zuckerberg should pay 10s hundreds of millions of dollars into Social Security. The point is, even beyond the income tax, people think about, they point to the global minimum tax because they saw a headline somewhere and they don’t even realize the taxes, they’re really paying, thinking I don’t pay any income tax. 

Stephan Livera 00:10:21  

Yeah, I think it’s a great point. You make that a lot of people are just headline driven. They don’t look into actual details and that sometimes causes people to make an error in thinking. So as an example, I saw some stat recently where the people were, you know, I think this is in America, they were estimating how many trans people are there as an example, right? Not that I’m you know getting into that, but they wildly overestimated the number because maybe it’s like the number of times they repeat a message. It just makes it people, you know, think about that in their minds, even if that doesn’t align with reality. If it’s only 1 or 2% of the population, actually they think in their mind it’s 30% or something ridiculous. 

Andrew Henderson 00:10:58  

What was the, even like Bill Maher mentioned this Like Democrats thought that like if you got COVID there was like a 60% chance you’d have to go to the hospital. He’s like it’s 3 or something like that. So that’s, you know, I, yeah, I mean headlines, I just went to visit a guy about a month ago in Tuscany. Everyone thinks Oh Italy and whenever I talk about Italy and I talk about tax advantages Italy people say, what’s this guy? What’s he smoking? Taxes are sky high in Italy. Well, if you’re a foreigner, they’ve got, for example, among other tax incentives that lump sum. This guy makes 10s of millions of dollars a year. He goes to Italy, he pays a flat 100,000. EUR and that’s all he has to pay for the next 15 years. They have a carve out because what? 99-point whatever percent of Italians aren’t paying €100,000 in tax. So, they said, hey, we’ll take the Swiss model. We’ll charge a lower price than Switzerland, which is in the hundreds of thousands. And hey, listen, if you want to come and live here, that’s enough to cover the roads and the bridges and everything else and you know. But people look at the headlines, they look at the Dubai for example, they don’t realize, hey, you might pay less tax in Italy or in Ireland. Than you would in Dubai because everything is headline driven and I think that it’s getting beyond those headlines. That’s the key to what we would say, going where you’re treated best. 

Stephan Livera 00:12:18 

Right, and so, one other area when it comes to citizenship by investment like as we were talking a little bit about it and you touched on this, there’s been. Some news recently that certain Caribbean nations may have UK visa free access taken away, and there was also speculation that it maybe it may happen also. In the EU and then we saw the response. I think Saint Kitts raised the price and said we’re going to do a little bit more due diligence. Do you have any views to share on that? Do you just think that’s the future of it? It’s going to be increased prices increased scrutiny. 

Andrew Henderson 00:12:49  

Yeah, I’ve been saying that since the beginning of the pandemic and I made a video a number one video on YouTube 3.6 million views the US plan to kill 2nd Citizenship and I kind of mentioned some of this stuff coming. We made another video about how second citizenship would be dead in early 2022. You know, obviously that’s a little sensational and people said it was fear mongering. They said, Oh no, no, the prices are all gonna come down. It’s capitalism. And I said no, you have these emerging economies, you don’t think of which are 90 to 95% of the clientele of these programs. They’re happy to pay more and supply doesn’t matter. The price will go up as compliance demands go up. So, Dominica, which was considered. You know they had their they had a few issues over the years, the press so they got single that to be removed from the UK visa Free Travel list and then Vanuatu in the South Pacific that’s on the Caribbean one. But that’s a different citizenship program. I would almost never recommend that unless it’s just like a collector of citizenship or something or you just have no other options. I mean, Vanuatu is good, is a is a super-duper Plan B, but it’s not your first second passport, so they lost access to the UK. Will the others, I don’t know. We’ll see the Commonwealth always. You know, they’re these are Commonwealth countries. Always had a very strong relationship with the UK will Europe. Well, the US made a deal that if they started doing interviews of applicants, which I don’t think is a huge deal, it’s an inconvenience. But if you know you it is what it is, you know if you do some of these things we’ll stand up for you with Europe. If US can’t keep their word on that, all the more reason you wanna play and be away from that country or anyone, that’s in close quarters with it. Europe has come out and said now some of the same things, including double your price, saying kids responded by saying, okay, we’ll do that immediately. They’ve always liked to charge more than other countries, so I’m not entirely surprised. So apparently, you know there will be an option that can go to UK, they can go to Europe and you’ll just pay more for it. The others will follow suit. Or they won’t maybe Europe will crack down maybe they won’t. By the way, getting a residence permit to live in Europe, if that’s your goal, is not difficult. There’s a lot of countries, the UK less time I was there, they wanted it. They asked me a bunch of questions why I’m staying for two days and a lot of people. I now get the same treatment getting into the UK is not the world’s easiest feat, and there’s no investor. Entrepreneur visa programs to speak of so the UK as a country that’s just kind of tough to get into overall Europe in general I think is much more open. And so I think if I’m a Westerner and I have another passport, I can go to Europe on. I’m not that worried. I’m not that worried overall. Certainly, I’m Chinese and this is my only ticket In then either get a residence permit or I get a visa, which isn’t that hard, or I don’t go. Keep in mind, in 2024 all the people who just show up in Europe now will need to get Edius, which is an a preclearance. And it’s gonna be kind of like ESTA in the United States, and it’s gonna ask you a bunch of questions, and it’s gonna be more than most Americans have done. So just going to Europe as an American, the media is saying is going to be more difficult. It’s not really a visa, but it’s more difficult than some visas. So, you know, I think that Western countries. Are increasingly becoming isolated. the US, Canada and Australia and New Zealand already have that. I think that you know the opportunity. I don’t think there’ll be huge issues with this. Maybe I’ll be wrong, but I think that people want to start looking towards the places where we talk about the Mexicos, the Columbias, the Malaysians, the UAE’s, the Serbia the Mauritius those countries don’t care, they want you. If you have wealth, right? Isn’t that it does that make sense in the free market? Oh, you have money. Please step further we’d love to have you here. Wouldn’t you like a backup plan against the countries, they’re like you disgusting animal. You and your filthy money. You think you we want you in Europe, you swine. Go over there like is that if that’s what it comes to, maybe you won’t be buying chocolates in Zurich. I think you’ll. Be fine, but I mean, at a certain point, why is it we’re so married to, I have to go to Zurich and not to Kuala Lumpur? 

Stephan Livera 00:17:04  

Yeah, I think It’s a great point and it’s interesting to see some of the what seems to be some of the mindsets coming out of, let’s say, the UK and some of the EU where it sort of seeing like, oh, you shouldn’t be buying your access in, you have to, you know, go through this other pathway  But I’m also curious your views because I wonder is there to some extent like a life cycle? For these things that you know as a country, maybe you know if you went to Singapore 20 or 30 years ago or Hong Kong 20 or 30 years ago, it was maybe easier or a little bit better. Then and so maybe there’s a life cycle to that. And actually, as certain countries, maybe they start to price it higher and higher, there may be new countries who kind of come up and say, hey, we’ll have a program, you know, maybe it’s Africa or somewhere else. 

Andrew Henderson 00:17:46  

Yeah, here’s my thoughts on I mean, we’re in a multipolar world and so and I and I’m not in the extreme level of the dollars going to zero with a bullet. But if you look at, you know the dollar share of is the reserve currency, it’s down 15 points in this century. Where has it gone? Well, 2% went to the yen recently. Alright, it’s not going to one player. That’s people miss. Oh. What’s gonna overtake the dollar? Nothing. Lots of little things. Death by 1000 cuts slowly but surely so, 30 years ago. Yeah, Singapore. Please come right in start a business we’d love to have you, Now they just raise the numbers. I mean the highest numbers. If you’re just a passive investor, it could be 9 figures to live in Singapore. Yes, there are cheaper ways to do it, including business with some. Restrictions, but at the highest level 9 figures why they can afford to do it. They don’t need more people. They need only the creme de la creme. So, what replaces that? The country that you would have looked to scan at, just like you look to scan at Singapore or South Korea 30 years ago or? 40 years ago. It’s a country like that. Yes, there is a new residence by investment program. It’s $50,000. You buy $50,000 in real estate. Please come right in. It’s Egypt. Egypt is terrible. Well, it’s probably good about Singapore all those years ago, when they, when they got kicked out of the federation with what’s now Malaysia. Why would I go there? I mean, look at pictures of Singapore in the 70s. It ain’t Singapore today. You had to have a little bit of foresight. People go to Georgia, you know where the easiest places in the world to beg it is not a cheap place to live anymore. So the value for someone seeking values probably up there, but it’s still tax friendly. They just recently increased the price of their tax program. But if you live there full time, does it really matter? It’s still a good deal. But like, yeah, everything’s going up and it’s going to be. You know, Georgia is the new Singapore for one part of the equation. There’s not going to be one, you know, perfect place. The UAE perhaps is a contender but there’s really no citizenship for most people. Yet they are starting to open up a little bit there. Kevin O’Leary for example, got given. It was given I am ready citizenship by exception, but that’s not gonna help the average person, you know. So, I think it’s a matter of, you know, getting your eggs in some different baskets and accepting you. They’re gonna pay a higher price. Or you’re going to get something. It’s going to be up and coming. And I think it’s realizing that the vast majority of your competition is people investing from countries you’ve never heard of, the fact it’s like people who. In New York City in 84, who said I don’t know how Reagan won? Nobody I know voted for him. No one else I know in the US are very people. They’re not doing this stuff. Yeah, everyone in all those other countries have mentioned they’re all doing this. They all want options and they’re willing to pay for it. 

Stephan Livera 00:20:30  

Yeah, comes to selection bias and I think as we were saying earlier, there’s a concept known as home country bias. And that’s a thing from the world of investing where a lot of people. And I know this. When I was back in Australia, it was a common thing that people just invest in the Australian stock market. They didn’t invest in the global stock market because they had home country buyers and in the same way. When it comes to citizenship residency, setting up your company, you name it, people exhibit a lot of the same home country bias. And I think we are moving into a world where there are options. Yes, they are. Some of them are becoming. Expensive, but I think there are a range of options, even for people who aren’t super rich. There are a lot of Nomad, you know, digital Nomad programs and things like this that are even making it accessible for people who are willing to, let’s say, go for an up and coming place. 

Andrew Henderson 00:21:17  

Well, by the way do you see Australia fill up the list of free countries? This year, they’re not even the free category anymore economically and by the way, listen I own a few Australian stocks, but I don’t have a bias. I looked at the entire landscape of stocks I have part of My Portfolio, which is very boring, very bland dividend portfolio. I wanted to say, okay, let me let me reinvest the company’s money and I’ll have a portfolio of boring stuff that just pays me to live and yeah, I’ll throw a few Australian stocks in there. But it’s not because I was biased towards that, in fact, it’s actually I don’t have very many because the conditions aren’t as favorable. They’re just a few really great stocks that I like that overcomes their higher dividend tax that a country like Hong Kong or Singapore doesn’t have. And so, I threw a few of those in there just for some diversification, but here’s what I think the financial peace comes in. You can move to countries in Europe, but let’s take Portugal, for example. Portugal has visas. You can move there. You basically just have to show you have a few bucks, but then you have to live there. And if you don’t live there, then I gonna renew you and you won’t get citizenship. If you go through the golden visa, which has now been brought back minus primarily the real estate investment option, then you only need to spend about a week there per year and you’re on the track to citizenship. Now they’ve been rather inefficient, unfortunately, in issuing those, but the point is, if you’re willing to invest, not pay, but invest a larger sum in the mid 6 figures. You can get better conditions if you don’t have the money to invest to still get in, but you’re gonna have to, you know, to put in the time. And so you know, it’s like anything else. You know, do you want fast, easy or cheap? You don’t get fast, easy and cheap all-in-one thing. And so, I think we’re seeing, you know that change, if you want the one of the best second passports in the world, you spend about $1,000,000 all in and you can become Maltese in 15 or 18 months. It’s an EU country, it’s tax favorable. They don’t tax you if you don’t live there. That’s kind of the creme de la creme, but you get a discount for living in even Switzerland, for example. I mean, it’s really a nice thing to have. That’s an example of what it’s gonna cost. And so, there’s always gonna be options to move places that’s more open than ever. But is it gonna be somewhere that doesn’t like, doesn’t require you to live there? Plus gives you a great citizenship, plus gives you this that. I don’t know, but you know. That’s not going to happen. 

Stephan Livera 00:25:51  

I’m curious as well around you may have heard There’s been a lot of talk about the demographic collapse, right? that Elon is talking about it and various people are talking about this idea that, you know, the demographic pyramid that used to be is becoming more like a cylinder and some countries are trying to make up for that with immigration. But we also know that immigration is going to. Tap out eventually. And so, I’m curious if you believe that will force countries to be a bit more competitive in some ways to attract people? 

Andrew Henderson 00:26:21 

I don’t claim to be a demographics expert. I’ve certainly heard that argument in a number of times. You know, my understanding was we were gonna cap out it somewhere like 10 billion, and then you’d have certain deficiencies. You know, some of the countries and. People, would you Know give birth to fewer children and future generations. I mean, I’m spending some time in Ireland these days. I mean Ireland, they need 70,000 jobs. Housing is very expensive. So, it’s hard to get some of the people to come there, but countries need immigration. And so, Ireland has taken, I think, a very friendly approach towards doing that. I found them to be extraordinarily friendly for developed country to deal with, and I think that, you know, it’s that kind of competition that’s gonna be important. I think the main word is competition, and I think that there you know what I like about Ireland and what I like about Switzerland As countries in the West, in Europe, in a region, I’m not a huge fan of is they have a size, they have a history, they have a culture that says let’s be competitive, let’s be the place that handles people’s capital. Let’s you know, Ireland, the sense of humility about it in the culture that is different from some of the European countries. It’s certainly different from the US I have shared. I came across some data. Recently, if you were applying for a certain kind of US residence permit and you’re an Indian citizen, you are currently going in for an appointment. You scheduled in mid 1998, 25 years later. Come on in. We’re ready for you now, that’s not everybody, but that’s a certain kind of person getting a certain kind of residence permit from India because there’s too many Indians, don’t you think a lot of those folks would just go somewhere else? And I think some of those folks are pretty talented. And so the more competition that opens up, the fewer people that are going to say, you know what? I’m gonna wait even 2 years to go to the US. I know a. Lot of US immigration lawyers. All I hear than ever talking about is having to sue the government to get a decision on their cases. Meanwhile, in Ireland, for example, I got a decision in two months. They made it typographical air. We said, hey, you made an air. Oh, we’re very, very sorry. It was fixed within 24 hours. Difference in how you run your country and I just think that. I mean, who wants to be treated like garbage? I just think you know now some people. Yes, particularly let’s say Central America, the US is the goal and there will always be some of that. Now, if you’re in the US, you don’t hear that for some people in Turkey, for example, Germany is the goal or, you know, whatever for simplest. Everyone has a different goal. You hear the people coming to. Your country, but. I mean, millionaire migration. We talk about this is a big thing. Yeah, the moving out of Russia, they’re moving out of China. I mean, there’s also rich people moving into the US. Thousands of people give up their citizenship for years, let alone move. More Americans than ever living overseas, more Americans never have a passport. So you’re gonna have to have competition. And I think, yeah, I mean, where I think they will actually be allowed to get away with more competition is in these larger blocks, like the EU, which is why I think for certain people getting, let’s say, a. Mall to passport. Going to be the worst if you’re willing to live somewhere in Europe, they’ll say, alright, we’re not gonna beg you for taxes as long as you live in one of these countries we like and then you go and live in a country that taxes you one or two percent within Europe. Anyway, I just think competition is the name of the game and there are a small handful of countries that are not ready for it but needed. 

Stephan Livera 00:29:33  

Yeah, I think it’s an attitude. And culture issue for certain countries that maybe they have this resting on their laurels mindset as opposed to continually innovating and continually trying to stay competitive mindset which you know, maybe it’s not you can’t pin the, you can’t point it at one person, but maybe it’s a broader culture thing. 

Andrew Henderson 00:29:54  

Well, that’s the whole point of governments and Bureaucracy, right? I was watching a Jay Leno interview yesterday where he says, why don’t I own a Ferrari? The guy owns a million cars. I don’t know a Ferrari cause they, like, make you wait in a line and they make you buy 2 crappy cars before you can buy the car you want. Then you gotta pay them 25 grand. If I got it below, then in two years, you get to come back. And pay him another 25, he’s like I don’t need. I just bought a McLaren. I don’t. Need this right and I just think that there’s certain, you know, governments act that way sometimes. Like oh you know, they’ll do anything we ask. Get on your knees and beg. It’s like maybe 30 years ago. Not now. 

Stephan Livera 00:30:30  

Yeah, that’s really fascinating to see this shift in the How quickly parts of the world have changed and some parts of the world have really come up a lot in those thirty years, and now there’s all these opportunities and options out there and I think a lot of people are just sort of coasting on fumes or certain countries. If you could, you know, anthropomorphize them. They’re yeah, they’re having this kind of mindset. 

Andrew Henderson 00:30:51  

Well, If I made it real quick look at what the people in those countries are saying they’re not happy. Fewer people than ever are proud to be American, and some of that is cultural stuff. But I talked to my father 25 years ago, the US would go down. The West would go down and indexes Asian countries. Others would rise. You have formally communist countries in our lifetime that were communists that are now more free than the United States on numerous metrics. And you see people in the US who are saying. My wages are stagnant. I’m not making more money I’m having a hard time. That’s why you’re seeing some of the civil unrest. That’s why you’re seeing, I think a. Push probably the. More liberal economic policies that are gonna make it harder for people that it’s gonna create the incentive for other places to go. Well, and why is that? Again, I live in Malaysia part of the year. Those people are better off now than they were 30 years ago. And perhaps some of that came at the expense of the US, not in a bad way in my opinion. I don’t think that just because you’re what just because you’re from the US, you should get $60,000 a year to just push them up. No, If someone over here can do the job why should they? Toil and poverty just so you can have three cars in the driveway of your super Urban House people like me and you can hire anywhere, and I do. And the US makes it disadvantageous for me to hire there as an international business. So, guess what? I don’t. Meanwhile, I hire people that you know, I mean, the cost the wages in these other countries has done very well. And so you see people, there’s a middle class in Asia, even in Africa. Now, in part because you actually have to again be competitive. And So, what is, I mean, Malays is a better place to live now than it was 30 years ago. 

Stephan Livera 00:32:24  

Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I mean I agree with you there for sure. I think 1 area that might be interesting to get your thoughts is obviously CBDC’s Now there’s been a lot of talk about this. There’s been certain, you know, there is arguably a war on cash going on. Do you have any thoughts around the timelines for that? Do you think that maybe there are some countries that are better? That, let’s say, resisting CBDC, or because the culture is more cash focus. Do you have any views on CBDC and timelines for that kind? Of thing. 

Andrew Henderson 00:32:53  

Well, I mean go to Hong Kong Chinese New Year and watch as they can’t put the cash. So, the window they’ve got to bring it around in a cart through the side door, gotta parts of the Middle East, the Gulf. I have a friend who’s a banker in the UAE, he said. War on cash where he just had a guy with a pallet I had to sign up on the other day. That came in Eastern Europe. I mean, formerly communist countries. I think that I mean, not all of them, but many of them. I think there’s also places where, I mean, take Mexico, for example, in their response to COVID, you had a left-leaning president that had one of the most open policies during COVID why a lot of our people. Working basically in the in the grey economy. We have to let them go out and make a living. You think those people are banked? I mean that’s the whole scheme about it in the Western countries, most people in the US don’t not have a bank account because like, oh, it’s so hard. It’s like they don’t want a bank account and so they did it CBDC. They’re like, swoop in and help them like. I was trying to avoid that system. You could maybe make a case for some you know, I mean people using Bitcoin, Bitcoin cash, whatever. In some of these. Emerging countries, you. Know my philosophy is I’m less worried about the Saint Lucian Central bank digital currency that I am, the US or the EU or the UK. Well, they, I mean, just look at the UK, they were caught lying through their teeth. I don’t think that even if you have one in some of these smaller. Countries it’s gonna be an issue. We have seen like was it, Slovakia recently said we’re not gonna. We’re gonna make sure you can’t get rid of cash. They’re in the EU, maybe that has less teeth, but I think that, I mean, look at their history. You’ll see other countries in that region going the same direction. There’s no CBDC in Serbia. I have a home in Serbia. Serbia is not the perfect place, but I’ll tell you what people wanna be left alone there. They wanna live conservative lives. They’re probably not big fans of immigration, but I think they tolerate it. I guess from people that they believe are, you know, higher up the food chain is how I would describe it than they are. It’s a lot of those kinds of countries operate. In fact, they’re even talking about rolling out a program where you can get citizenship and is a little of a year of living there, we’ll see if they do that, but that’s the kind of country that you’re that you’re not able to go to. And so again, I really think it’s gonna be a time for choosing. If you want a conservative country where people act conservatively and just all the stuff people say they want, it’s gonna look something like Serbia. They ain’t getting rid of meat in Serbia, Okay? They have nothing but meat like hey, can I have got a vegetable? What are you talking about? Vegetables have more meat, piles and piles of meat, and they’re not getting rid of meat. Believe me, they’re probably not getting out of CBDC. They don’t want the EU telling them what to do. That’s the kind of place you’re gonna go. Probably some places in Africa, but I mean some of these countries also were just so far off the grid. We had guys multimillionaires moving to like Nicaragua during the pandemic cause it was tax friendly. It was open. It was. Leave me alone. That’s what it’s going to be you know. Like an alcoholic, the US is not gonna change, and until it hits rock bottom. 

Stephan Livera 00:35:59  

Yeah, and as you rightly say, there are different countries that have a stronger cash culture, right? I’m actually in Dubai, I’m in the UAE myself And certainly, obviously I’m Bitcoin guy, so of course I’ll use Bitcoin where I can, but if I can’t, I’ll I like to use cash and I know parts of Latin America, parts of Asia are like that too, that they there’s a strong cash economy. And so, it’s funny that I see news, you know, and I see you. You might have seen it as well. In Australia, there was, you know, a video clip going around about. Oh the war on cash you need to ask the bank branch in advance if you’re going to take a certain amount out and you need to explain why you’re taking all this money and cash out, whereas in other countries it’s just not like that. It’s just on the ground and you pay with cash. 

Andrew Henderson 00:36:41  

I don’t want. I was Obviously there’s no panacea and obviously you see some countries where they’re like, hey, I mean, I think Georgia did a great job with digital payments very early on. I mean, a decade ago they were really doing a great job. By the way. I think the first country to put their entire like title to. Real estate and stuff on a blockchain. But you know, I keep coming back to that 15%. That’s the world everyone focuses on, you know, in the West when they talk with the international community is with us. It’s 15% of the world’s population and people will tell me. Oh got it. The way to survive is go to a third world country? No, not what I’m saying. You’re probably not gonna go to China or to India not. I mean, I’ve been to those countries. I mean, yeah, I mean, maybe China is getting a little but. I mean, there’s 252 sovereign countries and autonomous jurisdictions in the world. I’m guessing one is better than where you’re at and gives you the stuff you want. I mean, out of 252. years ain’t number one in all the criteria and it’s probably number 1 in none of the criteria. So, listen, banks around the world do what bankers do. But guess what? If you’re an American and you wanna leave the US, you don’t have to give up your U.S. bank accounts. Some other people do in other. Countries, but you can bank in the US if that’s. What you want to do? Not saying get rid of everything American or Australian. I’m saying at least have some diversification, have a passport, have a residence permit, have another bank account. Maybe you want stronger asset protection and trust. If you have a certain amount of money, if your business is, you know in your country and it can be run from anywhere, maybe you move that offshore. Now, if you don’t move offshore, you’re not gonna save taxes, but we have some people who just say I just. Want the asset protection? I want to hire people there, it’s a better deal for me, even if I pay taxes here at home. You know, that’s the kind of stuff people should be looking at doing to protect themselves and at least being one step closer to where they’re covered. And so, if you got a bank account in the UAE, whether your money’s at home or your money is in the UAE, it’s probably not a big difference in terms of the safety of the money. Maybe it’s even safer there for some people, but you know it just to me it comes down to we’re all thinking in that 15% bobble but and that’s the problem. Yeah, that 15% may be screwed in the. Scenario you layout. 

Stephan Livera 00:38:58  

Yeah, And it’s funny because as you when you first said 15%, I was first thinking you were referring to the global minimum tax, the corporation there and then you so and then I realized, oh, wait, no, you’re talking about the international community, right? Because that’s another interesting angle. And I think they’re kind of related in a way, right. People might be. Worried that? Okay, you know, it starts out a very high threshold, but then over, of course it comes down over time, right? Sure. Yeah. And so just like the AML $10,000 reporting threshold used to be something like $70,000 in today’s terms or something like this and then you know? 

Andrew Henderson 00:39:28  

Or it just inflated away. 

Stephan Livera 00:39:31  

Exactly, Yeah because of Inflation 

Andrew Henderson 00:39:31  

20 years from now, right? 

Stephan Livera 00:39:33  

So, then that might make people scared that Okay, even if I try to go somewhere else, they’re still gonna hit me with global minimum tax in 10 years time. What should I do about that? Right now? What would you say to that? Do you? Would you say a similar kind of answer that look, really, that’s the international community per say and? You know that’s not necessarily gonna apply everywhere. 

Andrew Henderson 00:39:53  

I mean, first of all, if you paid 15% tax and you had no dividend tax, you’re still paying less than almost everybody living in those Western countries to begin with. And when I lived in the US, I think my total burden was something like 42 or 43% at the peak and I lived in a relatively low tax state. You know, I tell people sometimes they’re paying half of their income to live in these countries. So to go to 15. I’m not saying everyone pays 0 tax. We have people who come to us. We’ve helped people move to 31 different tax friendly countries. Some people are like, hey, listen, keep it under 10. I don’t want to live in a desert. I don’t want to live in a tropical island, you know, put me somewhere where I can pay. 8, 9, 10%, I’m happy to pay that so you know 15 is still a dramatic improvement. If you can do what you want with the money afterwards. In terms of, you know, waiting 10 years, I don’t know about you. I mean I plan to make. A lot of money in the next 10 years. And so, I mean they what’s Robert Herjavec on Shark Tank says nothing wrong with making a whack of cash. Oh, the role that would. Befall you if you were able to save 20 or $30 million in the next 10 years and then the rules changed. I mean, I get it. I don’t like dealing with all this bureaucracy. I’ve had people tell me I have no idea how you opened 47 bank accounts and got all the passports and got it’s like I want to kill myself getting one. One guy told me. I guess is what we help people do, but I just think it’s. I’m a I’ve. Always been very entrepreneurial and I just have a great distaste for this defeatism. You know, if everything’s gonna end, don’t you wanna go down fighting? I think your best chance fighting is to go somewhere with the conditions are better rather than think you’re gonna sit around with your guns on the top of your house in Arizona or something like that. That isn’t something very pleasant. Way to go for me, I’d rather be with Doug Casey sitting in Uruguay somewhere as they says, watching on my big screen TV because I Just fundamentally don’t. Believe that every country thinks the way the United States does. I just fundamentally don’t and let’s talk about the war again. The Ruble is down after being way up after being the best performing currency of 2022. The ruble is down again versus when the war started. I know some people in Russia and I’m married to a Russian, you know, I don’t know that their lives are so miserable, this idea that like everybody needs the West I think is fundamentally. Flawed and you’re seeing people who don’t want the West and listen, let’s take some of the folks who are more politically conservative in the US here’s your opportunity. It’s in Serbia. It’s in that part of the world. There’s your politically conservative culture. It is all the stuff you say you want. You wanna go there or not? Or you wanna sit and hope that your country is gonna turn on a dime? I just don’t understand. To me, the best way to fight the best way to vote is with your feet. This idea. I’m gonna sit at home just be angry my entire life. And I worked in talk radio for many years. I had business. In the talk radio space, some of those folks, I can tell you. Do just want to be angry. The worst thing that ever happened to them is they’d be happy. And I just think if you wanna be happy, there’s a geographic solution for that. 

Stephan Livera 00:42:52  

Yeah, great. One question Obviously more related to my Bitcoiner audience. Probably many of them will be thinking about retaining Bitcoin exposure, but at the same time for some different programs they may need to show assets inside the Fiat. System, right? And obviously I’m sure you’ve probably dealt with this for some of your clients or many of your clients. Do you have any? Tips for people to consider on that? Is it just a matter of deciding? Okay, I’m comfortable with this much. I’m gonna take that. I’m gonna have that much in the fiat system so that I can pass these checks or hurdles. 

Andrew Henderson 00:43:23  

Yeah, I mean I think it’s as simple as just having an account. I mean my philosophy is I do want a little bit of diversification. I understand some folks are all in on Bitcoin, but you know, if you want to do this stuff, it’s the price of admission. And I look at it and say what’s my ROI? Yeah, I was telling people during the boom. Get your citizenship by investment now, $100,000. Oh, that’s 1.6 Bitcoin. You’re done. your gold and you’re covered. Who knows when you’ll need it? No, it’ll be cheaper. Well, now the price of citizenship is going up and the value of Bitcoin is lower. And I just think the best time to just get in is you. You just bite the bullet a little bit. Get in. You set aside whatever it is. I mean, again, if you want to move to, you know, if it’s somewhere in Latin America, maybe you need a years of bank statements showing that you have $1500 a month. It could be as easy as that. If you want some kind of golden visa that gets you a great passport, you gotta have that. And it’s gonna be seasoned a little bit. They don’t wanna see it. You know, the day before, you know. So anywhere from. 25 to a couple 100,000. Dollars and you just accept. That’s the price of admission because you know, we have a great opportunity right now. What was Bitcoin 13, 14 months ago right about where it is now? I think if you bought it 13, 14 months ago, you can now exit your country’s tax system without an exit tax because you have no capital gain. You can exit and then you can enjoy any future run up somewhere else if you believe that asset values are gonna increase dramatically Then you know, setting aside a little bit of money, now it is a simple ROI calculation. That is, I think maybe a group that’s gonna be hurt by any increases in Caribbean citizenship because, you know, that was the group that said I’d rather donate $150,000, then invest 400 in Turkey. Even if I’ll get the 400 back later, the 250 opportunity cost for three or four years. Isn’t worth it. So, we run those numbers of people, but I think it goes back to my saying and this stuff always gets more expensive. The options over time will to become more expensive or they’ll go away citizenships, residences. They historically go away or the price goes dramatically up. Rarely is it get cheaper. Egypt will come in for 50 grand. That’s what you’ll want? Fantastic, but I just think people have to bite a little bit of a bullet because it’s a greater perspective of savings and a freedom. 

Stephan Livera 00:45:39 

Yeah, I think it’s a totally fair point about ROI. As you know, even excluding Bitcoin, that’s just something people have to think about in general anyway. OK so. Look, let’s yeah. 

Andrew Henderson 00:45:48  

And I’ll add this if I may, you know, look at how people in these 15%, you know, especially the Western countries when they say oh you can’t accept Bitcoin for this. Do you think Starbucks is gonna argue with the government? They’re gonna fall right in line, so I want this stuff set up earlier, even if it means, you know, it cost me a little bit of money. That’s my pragmatic view. 

Stephan Livera 00:46:09  

Right, Yeah, it’s a, you know, getting the insurance before the house burns down, of course And let’s talk a little bit about Nomad Capitalist live. So, this is coming up. I’m going to be there, of course. But let’s hear from you. What can people expect at Nomad Capitalist Live. 

Andrew Henderson 00:46:23  

Well, no. Nomad Capitalist live is our annual event. It’s designed whether you have a 7 or 8 figure, you know income or net worth that we normally work with those folks whether you’re there and you’re just exploring or whether you’re not yet there yet, come and learn the R&D come and learn the changes. We have some presentations we give every year, and we just update. Here’s what’s changed. Here’s what’s harder. Here’s what’s easier. Here’s a new program, but it’s basically four days of pretty much non-stop information and non-stop networking. On increasing your finance, your freedom and your lifestyle. Using internationalization tactics, whether it’s bank accounts, whether it’s, you know, vaults, whether it’s residents, citizenship, lifestyle, we try and provide some color commentary. We’ve got some keynote speakers such as yourself, we’ve got Jim Rogers, the venture capital. We’ve got a lot of, you know, Mark Faber, a lot of big names are coming, but it’s also our team that’s in the trenches of people saying you want to run your company overseas. Here’s 7 problems we’ve had, and we’ve seen people have don’t do these things. Hey, here’s 5 new residences you’ve never heard of, and nobody can sponsor it. Nobody can pay to speak. So, it’s a premium ticket because there’s nothing for sale. If you want to work with us, you can. We’ll have a few of our vendors there if you want to work with them, you can, but no one’s gonna be selling anything on the stage. You know, we’ve got one day that starts at 8:00 in the morning and goes till like 10:30 at night. I wanna jam this in so that anybody can come and learn a lot. But anyway, it’s happening September 6th through the 9th in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. It’s worth the trip in my opinion. Malaysia is incredibly affordable. Right now, the five Star Hotel we’re at colonial style, the majestic 1 of my favorites in the world. Less than 100 bucks a night. Get a full health checkup at Prince Court Medical Center for 300 bucks. We’ve got about 40 people I think doing that, we’ve helped them set it up to do an A-Z physical. It probably cost you 5 to 10 grand somewhere else. So, I just think you know it’s in Malaysia because I wanted to show people Malaysia. I’ve been there for a decade and it is a little bit further for some folks, but I think you’ll discover the alternative that we’re talking about, English speaking, friendly people, very open country you know, if you’re not Malaysian Muslim and you wanna have half your culo showing from your shorts, nobody’s gonna bother you. I know you like to do that you like to sometimes, you know, with the little short shorts. But I’m just a big fan and I think that, you know, our brand is about things that I’ve done and that I wish other people could save the leg work. And I think Kuala Lumpur is a great place to see and this is a four-day event that I don’t think we’ve had a single complaint the last couple of years. I think everybody just it’s just endless information and the people you’ll meet are incredible. 

Stephan Livera 00:49:13  

And I think the other aspect that I personally will find interesting is also the chance to just network and just chat with other like-minded people. Because sometimes, yeah, it can be difficult to connect with a certain kind of person. And I think sometimes when you go to that kind of conference actually it’s also, it’s obviously I’m sure the talks and the content will be great up on the stage. But it’s also about the networking and the people you meet in the side corridors and the and the hallway and the, you know, and the dinners and the events. I think that’s an interesting element, also the networking. 

Andrew Henderson 00:49:43  

We’ve always had, I mean, Robert Kiyosaki was there two years ago, talked to every single person there. Nigel Farage was there last year, I think talked to almost everybody there. I mean, people really get out there and you know, it’s great in Malaysia that pastime is eating. So, we actually had to cut back on some of the eating cause. They’re like they wanted us to have breakfast. Lunch 3 snack breaks and then we do a dinner. And like, that’s a little bit too much eating, but the food will be great and you’ll meet a lot of People I think this will be even better because I think it is a little bit further and so you’re getting people who are really dedicated to this, but one of the things I’ve heard for years from people is I’m the only one who thinks this way. I don’t know too many other people who agree. My family thinks I’m kind of nuts. What, you want a second passport? The US is the best place on Earth here. You’re gonna find people who? You fit right in with. They realize what’s happening. 

Stephan Livera 00:50:33  

Yeah, fantastic. Well, I think that’s a good spot to finish there If you have any, I guess closing thoughts for people or if you had a message that people should take away from. In this you know what? What do you think the message should be for them? 

Andrew Henderson 00:50:44  

Well, I always say go where you’re treated best, eliminating what you call the hometown bias. I think it’s very important. It is a big mindset issue. I’d like to talk about mindset sometimes because that’s people get hung up the program. You choose the bank, you go with whatever it is that that can all be dealt with, but you’ve gotta have the right perspective. That as much as it hurts facing reality, in my opinion, is always better. That’s when change happens. That’s when the good stuff. You know, the numbers are not going in the right direction for Western countries. It does not mean I hate the Western countries. It doesn’t mean you have to hate them. Maybe you can go back and visit your country. Maybe you’re not even. Ready to move yet? You just want a Plan B but acknowledging that there’s a lot of competitive offerings out there and that your country in the time of not much competition got a little lazy. I think it’s a reasonable thing to do and it’s something that everyone should handle to their means. You know, if you have, if you don’t have much money, open a bank account in Georgia, maybe get a residence permit and Latin America, Mexico, something like that. That plays out if you have more money, do more stuff, get citizenship in six months, get multiple residence permits, get bigger banks, make investments. The sky is the limit, but you know, if you think am I going or I’m treated best? Not better. Not a little better. Not that they tolerate me. Is this the best place for X? My money, my family, my safety, my whatever and act accordingly. 

Stephan Livera 00:52:14  

Fantastic well, I think that’s a great spot to finish up Andrew, thank you for joining me and I’m looking forward to hanging out in. KL  

Andrew Henderson 00:52:18 

We will it. 

Stephan Livera 00:52:21 

Find the show notes over at I hope you enjoyed the show and if you did, please do share it out there. Give it a like and thumbs up on YouTube and give it a good review. Thanks, and I will see you in the Citadels. 

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